The Evidence of Game Shame

“Good games will get boring whenever another game one ups them, but good music is timeless.”  – reddit user

For five years, I wrote about game design over at my old blog, The Expensive Planetarium.  One of my most-recurring themes was that of “game shame“:  the idea that many or even most of us who play games don’t believe that they are a legitimate interest in the way that films or music are.  Game shame, like modern racism and sexism, is never overly spoken, and probably never even consciously thought.  Instead, it seeps in between the lines, but it still has a powerful negative effect on our entire world of games.  Games are for children, games are disposable, games are empty, games rot your brain.

Obviously, the premise of game shame is completely false, and many will be reading this article thinking that I’m just making something up so that I can complain about it.  So, before I go any further with explaining why we need to be rid of game shame, I will provide evidence to show that it is, indeed, a thing.

 

Games Are Cool When They are Unlike Games

For the past ten or fifteen years, the coolest thing a game could possibly do is look as much like a movie as possible.  Since films are the most popular visual media in our culture (other than games), it’s not surprising that some games would end up doing this.  First, we had the Metal Gear Solid thing, where there was this long intro with credits rolling over, and voice acting, and all of that.  It was quite a spectacle!  “Man, this looks so much like a movie”, we all said.

Oh I guess this is a game about looking at this guy?

But then… it didn’t stop, or even slow.  Instead it got bigger and bigger, and got to the point where today, if your new game isn’t presented to look like a movie, it better have a damn good reason.  This affected even intensely mechanical RPGs like Baldur’s Gate, which I feel very confident would have been turn-based if it weren’t for this idea that games have to look “cinematic”.  The Total War series has always had a real-time combat system, despite being obviously designed to be a turn-based game, so that it looks like a scene from Gladiator, or something.

So why is this?  It’s because movies are cool.  Movies are already well-respected and it’s not considered childish to enjoy movies, so if your game looks and feels more like a movie, then maybe it’s nothing to be ashamed of?  Just put the controller  under a blanket if anyone walks into the room, and they’ll think you’re watching some really awful movie!  Phew!

It’s not just movies, either.  The Madden series (and most sports game series) does everything it can not to simulate football, but to simulate televised football.  For as much shit as television has gotten for being an illegitimate way to spend your time over the last 30 years, it’s still way more legitimate than games (TV may be finally coming out of its own “shame” period around now).

For this reason, “score” has been basically blacklisted as a mechanism, despite the fact that it’s the only way to have a single-player game be endlessly replayable.  Mechanisms are something to hide;  a game shouldn’t feel too “gamey”.  Games should be fantasy simulations, because even “playing pretend” is less childish than playing a game.

 

The “Let’s Talk about Games As Art” Crowd

This is the most irritating form of game shame.  I’m sure you’ve seen the brand of article I’m talking about:  anti-intellectual pretentious nonsense that blathers on and on in the most long-winded way possible about, basically, nothing.  It’s all under the umbrella of existential non-arguments that stem from an ill-defined and unclear claim about “some” games being art.  Reddit’s /ludology subreddit is jam-packed with this stuff.

Before I go on anymore about how horribly pervasive this stuff is, let me give some examples.  Okay, so after I wrote that last sentence, I went to www.reddit.com/r/ludology to look for some examples.  The very first link was literally called “Braid Review:  Video Games as High Art” (yes, people are still writing new copies of this same article).  So let’s take a gander at that one.

I came to the conclusion, admittedly a bit of a cop out, that judging art is an individual, subjective process.

Oh, really?  Well, for some reason I feel a bit less compelled to read anything you, or anyone else has to say on the matter, then, because my subjective experience is just as good as anyone else’s facts.  I love how he says “admittedly a bit of a cop out”.  It’s like when people say “hey no disrespect, but you’re a piece of dog shit to me”.  As though throwing the “a bit of a cop out” qualifier in there makes it any less of a cop out, which is precisely what this is.  Off to a bad start.

That said, Roger Ebert is dead wrong.

Oh daaaaaaaaayammnn!  He done told off Roger Ebert of 2010, after only two full years of almost everyone saying Roger Ebert was wrong (hell, even Roger himself admitted he was probably wrong).  So yeah, putting this as its own paragraph is extremely pretentious and stupid.

It takes a certain amount of bravado, even for a celebrated film critic, to declare that an entire medium can never reach the pinnacle of artistic merit.

Really?  Because in the first paragraph you said that judging art is an individual, subjective process.  So what if in this individual’s gut, they just feel “you know what, the entire medium of videogames can’t be art”.  Who are you to say that his existential whims are invalid?  You can’t have it both ways.  Either there are actual criteria for art, or there aren’t.  If there aren’t, then you’re a fool to argue with someone about it, or to even talk to anyone about it.

It’s easy to point to Ebert’s age and believe that he mistakes the old days of fun if story-bare games like Pacman and Donkey Kong for the immersive, in depth, and often narrative world of video games that exists today.  But I think that lets Ebert off too easily.

Okay, here’s a giant, golden, crispy nugget of game shame, slathered in wrong-sauce.  What’s with the “fun if story-bare”?  “Story-bare” implies games are supposed to have a story, and “fun if story-bare” implies that “story-bare” is a bad thing.   This is what I’m talking about.  This is a man who thinks that a game, being only just a game, is not good enough.  Yeah, sure, it may be fun (whatever that means), but it’s frivilous nonsense.  Further, it’s clear that he’s saying “well, if Ebert was thinking about those older, story-less games, I would understand, because yeah, those aren’t art”.  What criteria is this writer using to determine that those older games aren’t art?  I thought it was all just subjective?

At base, anything that tells a story can not only be art; it can be high art, and Ebert ought to know that.

Ohhh high art?  Wow!  Is that like, when you super-duper feel how arty it is in your tummy?  Anyway, I could go on all day about this.  I’ve only gotten through the first few paragraphs and this is how many nonsense-geysers have erupted.

This is *not* art. I think. Or wait. Maybe it is, but like, it's not "high" art? Well, I mean, it is literally viewed from on high, but... wait, what does "high art" mean again?

But really, I’m not here to write about  the pretension, or emptiness of these people’s writing (maybe another day I’ll do an article just about them).  The relevant point here is that the reason these people are doing this is so that they can feel proud of their hobby.  If they were playing Call of Duty or League of Legends or something, they couldn’t start “waxing intellectual” to protect themselves from the game shame.  “Yes, I play games, but don’t worry, I really just like art.” 

This whole “games are art” movement is a defense mechanism for those who feel like it’s not enough for a game to just be a game.

(I should quickly clarify and say that I personally think all games are art, because they all require creativity to create.  Unlike these other people, I have one very specific bit of criteria for how I define art:  that it is the product of human creativity.)

 

It’s Understandable!

The thing we have to remember is that it is understandable that game shame exists.  It surprises me that more people don’t quit playing videogames when they reach their 30s, because frankly, most videogames suck.  Even the good ones have clear, obvious problems.  In order to find most of the good ones, you have to emulate old consoles or operating systems, find Japanese translation patches, etc.  For a normal person who’s willing to put in a normal amount of effort, they just aren’t going to be able to access – or even find out about – anything good.

Like, let’s take a look at the top 5 games of 2011, according to MetaCritic:

Batman: Arkham City – I half-reviewed this earlier on this site.  This is a completely idiotic He-Man  plot, spiced up with some mashy bullshit combat and some linear puzzles.

The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim – Bethesda has always had difficulty with the whole “designing games” thing, but since about 2004 it seems that they just completely gave up.  This is an almost totally empty sandbox game with extremely flat and uninteresting “hit point sack” combat, god-awful writing and “High Fantasy Voice” acting.  The list of problems with Skyrim is far beyond the scope of this article.

Portal 2:  A coherent, mostly solid sequel to Portal.  It’s a fine set of puzzles, but if you’ve played the original game you aren’t really missing much, except for some beloved-character-ruining dialogue.

Mass Effect 2 – A crappy sci-fi action RPG that’s mostly just running down corridors, shooting at bots or making false dialogue choices.

The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword – a puzzle game for babies

So, assuming you’ve already completed Portal 2 (which is really a puzzle, not a game, and therefore has zero possible replay value), what are you left with?  The games that are even worse than these?  Most people don’t know about designer boardgames, roguelikes, or the two or three decent indie games, so what do we expect?  How can we expect them to respect this medium, when everything they see is just garbage? 

 

Game shame isn’t going to just go away overnight, but it will go away eventually.  As with racism or sexism, the first step to improving the situation is to realize that it affects all of us in subtle ways.  Once we can consciously realize that it’s  something real, we can start to analyze our behaviors and modify them as necessary.  For instance, I think that the word “geek”, which now is starting to become almost totally positive, still has an illogical negative connotation with it.  Many people will say something like “god, I’m such a geek” after stating some facts about Ocarina of Time or something.  To me, this is, again, that defense mechanism.  “Don’t worry, I know how lame it is that I know about video games” is what that language says.  For that reason, I never, ever use the word “geek”.  Probably the only time I even type it is to link people to boardgamegeek.com.

The concept of “more than just a game” is another example of game-shame.  There is no “more than” a game.   Games are just as great as every other medium, when they’re games and nothing else.

Of course, the biggest way to eliminate game shame is to make games that we can actually be proud of.  I’m working on it, and I know I’m not the only one.

  • Blake

    Not to mention Braid is just a puzzle. It has a clever input mechanism, the whole time travel ghost thing, but it’s a puzzle. A simple puzzle we’ve seen a bjillion times. Because it has moody music and aesthetics, it’s suddenly this BREAKTHROUGH in “games as high art,” and…it’s not even a game to begin with.

    Before people jump down your throat defending Skyrim, I’ll list a few undeniable massive flaws that, like you said, are beyond the scope of your article.

    1. Balls-numbing difficulty:
    They said they got rid of globalized leveling. They didn’t. They just re-dressed it and integrated it into save/load, or as we at dinofarm like to call it, “tension-erradicating immortality.”
    2. Tension-erradicating immortality:
    There are like, maybe 1 in 100 decisions in Skyrim that aren’t complete no-brainer, boring, easy illusions of choice. “Do I steamroll the enemy with my lightning spell? Or do I steamroll the enemy with my sword?” On the rare occasion a tough decision begins to arise, well, it’s time for the clear and optimal strategy. Save before every battle or story branch. If the outcome doesn’t benefit you, reload. The “just don’t use it” argument isn’t worth bringing up. That is the player taking the roll of game designer and employing a house rule. it isn’t OUR responsibility to fix your broken game, bethesda.
    3. retarded-ass dialogue written by a 12 year old out of touch douche bag:…with horrible, HORRIBLE performances all around.
    4.sloppy, lazy design solutions: JUST like oblivion, they don’t want you to get your hands on an overpowered weapon before you’re a high enough level. Solution? Make the level 8 sword NOT EXIST IN THE WHOLE UNIVERSE until YOU’re level 8, then suddenly arm EVERY single civilian and bandit and monster with the level 8 weapon set….oh my gosh…I feel so immersed…

    They do this crap with magic too. When you reach level 3, you can buy level 3 spells from the spell merchants. Suddenly, when YOU reach level 4, they all sell the level 4 spell books! How CONVENIENT! If you’re gonna DO that, just make us buy the spell ONCE and then pay to upgrade it when we reach the level prerequisite! Why the fucking ERRAND back to the merchant. SLOPPY, LAZY assholes!

    5. a million skills, 1 solution: The optimal solution is to grind and get all the skills. There’s no point in having skill trees if no options are closed to you. If there’s a level cap, it still would most likely allow you MOST of the skills. But it doesn’t matter. They all just mostly optimize your damage output. There’s one or two skills that show promise, like being able to mow enemies over with your shield as you charge at them. Every skill should have had some tactical, spacial, physics-based use. But no. You find the weapon of spell with the highest number and you mash your way to victory.

    Skyrim is pathetic. Bethesda does not know what they are doing. They never have, really. They’ve just wanted to make simulators. So make a SIMULATOR next time and drop all this “gamey” pretension.

  • Paul Stone

    Holy shit dude if you think it’s all trash why do you even care. Oh no guys on the internet are being wrong about something that has no value anyway, better write a big article about it. Grats on being king of trash mountain with the best opinions on garbage.

    • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

      I mean obviously I don’t think ALL videogames are trash. And videogames have incredible potential to be fantastic games. That’s why I care.

  • OutSource

    If you’re going to criticize a perspective, you could at least try to pick apart the most articulate versions of that point of view. You mention Jonathon Blow, crown him the King of this “non-sense” and then proceed to pick apart the words of some random doofus whose article was written for a blog that is not even close to being exclusively about games. An article that shares the front page with articles about the NFL, Wrestling, Buffy The Vampire Slayer, and Cee-Lo. This is about as close to completely worthless as it is possible to get when it comes to actually addressing the subject at hand.

    Also, It’s nice to see some good old psychoanalysis of the people whom you disagree with. Because that’s always really insightful.

  • Blake

    @outsource,
    It’s also good to attack the arguer, quality of the argument and not provide counter-argument to the content of the argument.

    • OutSource

      I didn’t attack the arguer, or the “quality” of the argument. I critiqued the manner in which he chose to present his argument. He picked a random article which we as readers have no reason to believe is representative of anything apart from one guys opinion and which certainly doesn’t present anything approaching a coherent view of it’s own. He picked apart that article in a way that failed to stake out anything approaching a coherent or substantive position, and then claimed that this was somehow an indictment of some broadly popular, yet ill-defined perspective.

      The result is an article which produces rather little substance. Not because the writer doesn’t have anything interesting to say, but because the way he chose to engage the subject left him without much to go off of. He chose to stake out his position as a response to someone else’s position, and because the representative he chose was lacking in substance, he didn’t have much to work with when defining himself. That is why I said that this is article is worthless when it comes to addressing the issue at hand. Maybe this concept of game shame is valuable, but nothing about the way it was presented here gives me reason to think so.

      I don’t see why I’m obligated to make any counter argument. I never agreed with the positions he was attacking in the first place, and since the whole argument apart from the last part is just an attack on positions I don’t hold, what reason do I have to argue against it. And the part at the end was just an assertion of his own opinions about certain games based upon his own ideas (which he provides no argument for) about what constitutes good game design. It was not a coherent argument about much of anything.

      If the writer had bothered to stake out a coherent position, or had at least been critiquing a viewpoint with some substance of it’s own, then maybe I would have more to say. But he didn’t, so I don’t.

      • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

        The thing is, I used this guy because he’s a perfect example of this stuff.

        The argument is coherent. With regards to the “art” people, it is this:

        People use “art games” as a defense mechanism because they are ashamed of games.

        I provide plenty of evidence to support this in the article. If you don’t agree, that’s fine. But don’t say that my claim wasn’t clear.

        • OutSource

          Ok, so the main things you try to say in this article can be broken down into 3 or 4 parts.

          1) A lot of people think games are art.
          2) Their reasons for saying this are complete non-sense.
          3) They say this stuff because they’re ashamed of games.
          4) It’s understandable that they would feel this way, because most games suck. Except for the ones I like, and the ones I’m making.

          (1) You didn’t really need to give evidence for the proposition that a lot people consider games art, that much is pretty obvious.(2) You poked some holes in one persons explanation of why he thinks games are art, although your refutation of that idea as a whole was hardly conclusive, and his presentation of the idea here in the comments is quite a bit more nuanced and coherent than any of the quotes you used from his article. Even though I still don’t think the concept of art is useful. (3) You gave absolutely no evidence for the proposition that people say games are art because they’re ashamed of games. It’s just something you assert. This isn’t really surprising though considering it’s just blatant psychoanalysis. I suppose if someone just came right out and said that, then that would be evidence. But apart from that, unless you’ve somehow got access to people’s psychological motivations, I don’t think you’ve proved that point in the slightest. (4) This shows up in the article in the form of a bunch of opinions about games based on your opinion about what constitutes good game design. I don’t agree with much of what you said there, but I don’t expect everyone to like the same types of games so that’s not really a problem.

  • Sam

    “Like, let’s take a look at the top 5 games of 2011, according to MetaCritic: blah blah blah”

    For real? From that whole paragraph (and the preceding shit about ‘the good old days in Japan’), you sound like the most pretentious gamer I’ve ever come across! If you’re trying to be ironic, then great job*, otherwise… shit son, your standards are apparently too high for this medium.

    If you can relegate Arkham City, Skyrim, Portal 2 and Mass Effect 2 to trash status, then I can’t wait for your next game to see how games should be done.

    *The more I think about it, the more ironic it gets… especially with a top 5 with only 4 titles :P

    • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

      Well, I did not say that Portal 2 was trash. But the other games absolutely are, I’ll defend that to the ends of the earth.

      Oh whoops, ha! I will have to fix that top 4 thing =]

    • Blake

      Sam, don’t get us wrong. A vast, vast majority of japanese and western games alike from the 90s and today are god awful too. We’re saying of the FEW that are solid, replayable, elegant, challenging, unique games that actually count as games, like Shiren the Wanderer, are Japanese-only or very old and obscure. I mean, if shiren the wanderer came out tomorrow we’d have the same opinion of it. We don’t like it just because it’s old and obscure. Also, see my below comment for the proper use of the word “pretentious.” Ugh. it’s SUCH a popular term and is widely misused.

  • Yemala

    You know, I think Auro has potential to be a pretty good game, and certainly something I would spend money on.

    But you guys come off as /such/ pretentious wankers, that I just don’t want to follow your development anymore.

    Would have been nice if you discussed your game and design instead of just going on about how shit /everything else/ is.

    Good luck, guys.

    • Bret

      Keith, you need to wake up and pay attention. I tried to say this last article. And I’ll say it just one more time. Yemala is being as nice as humanly possible in his message here. I agree with him 100%.

      People are hopeful about your game despite this broad sweeping criticism of popular games. That is a BLESSING. But you are destroying your reputation bit by bit for every pretentious blog you write. What’s more, Blake is now perpetuating it with his comments?! You are both really pulling a Denis Dyack here. Why do you guys feel the need to say these things? Does it make you guys feel better to trash these games? I really don’t understand how you guys aren’t concerned about the reactions you are getting from potential customers. It’s easy to see you are pushing people away. It WILL get to the point where you’ve pushed so many people away, that AURO can’t save you – even if it is an excellent game.

      • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

        How is the above post pretentious? I would love for you to explain that.

        I think it is important to call these games out as trash, since in my view they *are* trash and very few people out there are pointing it out. It needs to be pointed out for us to progress. Why do you think it’s so terrible to call them trash?

        • Bret

          Sorry, I myself am trying to be less negative in my comments. I got to know you guys just a little bit in my time with you and recently started checking out what you guys were doing since the AURO kickstarter. Since then I’ve noticed that most of your articles, just like this one, met with some pretty negative backlash. There are some people who try to see past the negativity and try to think about what you are talking about. I’m one of those people – so I haven’t given up on AURO and I believe you guys have some legitimate things to say. I don’t always think you are right, but that’s okay with me. It is the general public you should be concerned about.

          I tried to say this before. Not everyone cares about your criticisms. Some people come here to this website just wanting to see AURO, because despite your trash talking most people are just hopeful that AURO will be good. I think I am hopeful for AURO because I know you have thought about the game a lot and have poured your heart into it. You have a brain for these things, and Blake is a very talented pixel art animator.

          I spoke out of turn when I said “pretentious blogs”. But I do think they are somewhat pretentious, and I actually don’t see how that isn’t obvious to you. So I will try to explain. Yemala said that you guys were pretentious wankers, and at first I was just trying to reiterate what he said. Blake also spoke on this below and had a great attitude about it. (Which is why I’m really trying to be helpful here.) I think it does you no service at all to try to look in the mirror and try to find out if you yourself are pretentious. What I am suggesting is that you look at your messages and your audience and ask yourselves why people react so negatively. There are probably quite a few people that have taken interest in AURO because of 100 Rogues, and then stop here and read that you are trying to change the definition of ‘game’, you are trying to trash Skyrim (which generally did quite well and had many passionate people working on it), or maybe you are talking about how you don’t like what is going on with Kickstarter. Your definition of ‘game’ is seen by some people as enlightening, but I gather that more people think you are just “talking about things you know nothing about as if you know everything”. This obviously isn’t your perception of yourselves – how could it be? But it is the growing perception of the public from what I have seen. We want to see the proof in the pudding. Most people are going to shrug off your attempts at philosophy because 100 Rogues is one of the only tangible things you have to show for all your talking so far. And what’s more, 100 Rogues probably breaks some of your rules about what a game is supposed to be – so it almost doesn’t help your cause either.

          I highly suggest you use tact and be more constructive. Below – you said you use constructive and destructive processes. You are just trying to justify your trash talk. No matter how smart you think your arguments are – you are pushing people away. So I just want you to be aware: you are choosing to trash games that are widely accepted. Your attitude pushes people away because they basically stop liking you. The other choice is to stop trying to justify yourselves and cut the negativity. Keep that to yourself. There is no reason you can’t be critical about other games and use that knowledge to improve your own games without making it public. Stop criticizing and complaining. Start inspiring people. I’m pretty sure you guys are capable of it. Then people will want to listen to what you have to say, and they will want to buy AURO and tell their friends. You guys are in business. You need PEOPLE to buy your game.

          • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

            With regards to comments, keep this rule in mind: those who are angered are the most likely to comment at all. I know I anger some people, but I also get a good amount of support. In fact, a university professor who teaches game design wrote to me in support, and even said (paraphrasing) “if you’re not pissing some people off, you’re probably not doing it right”. Of course, the point is not to piss people off. But the reality about being honest and forthright and logical is that you’re going to have to kill some sacred cows. People never like to hear someone else tell them that some thing that they like – that they identify with – “sucks”. Yet sometimes, it’s the case, and it needs to be said. I don’t go out of my way to say it, but with videogames it just so happens that it needs to be said *a lot*.

            I am not trying to change the definition for game, I am proposing a new definition for it. People are welcome to take it, or leave it if they don’t find it useful.

            If being honest and doing my best to be helpful pushes *some* people away, I can accept that. It’s better than the alternative, in my opinion.

            • Bret

              Keith, I think it just shows how unwilling you are to understand your audience when you talk about a professor of game design agreeing with you. That’s totally preaching to the choir in my opinion. Of course that guy is going to support you. You aren’t going to convince anyone with that.

              When you say “I am not trying to change the definition for game, I am proposing a new definition for it” You really have to look at that and realize what you sound like. I’ve already mentioned these things before. I think you come off as very self important to other people and I think you underestimate how many people you are pushing away and will continue to push away. If you think this is the right thing to do, keep doing it. I’ve said what I want to say about this subject. I think I’d rather debate about other things later on. Just know that I don’t think the negativity will not serve you, Blake, or your company well.

              • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

                Got it.

    • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

      >Would have been nice if you discussed your game and design instead of just going on about how shit /everything else/ is.

      Since when are the two mutually exclusive? I’ve written tons of articles here about Auro. Click on the tag on the right to see.

      I will continue to do my best to help in the world of game design by both constructive AND destructive processes.

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  • http://blown-to-bits.blogspot.com/ Kdansky

    I agree with Bret: You are not doing your own publicity a favour by voicing these such controversial opinions. Marketing is about lying and bullshitting, and making the (potential) customer believe they are the best person of the world if they give you money, and you are doing a really bad job right now by insulting people’s favourite games.

    You are completely right in everything you say, but people really hate the truth. So either you risk everything on being right, or you take the easy way out and go Press A For Awesome like Bioware. Sure, their recent games were really not good, but they still sell and for some inexplicable reason get high scores on Metacritic.

    I will certainly buy Auro.

    • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

      “Marketing is about lying and bullshitting”

      Well, we’re not only in the business of making and selling games. We’re also firmly in the business of trying to improve the conversation surrounding games.

    • Bret

      I’m happy you agree Kdansky. I just wanted to add though, that even though most marketing might be about lying and bullshitting. I still take the stance that you guys can get your message across without lying or bullshitting. I like that Keith is trying to improve the conversation. I just think there are ways to do it in a positive way.

    • embarrassing

      Metacritic scores are only chosen for how popular they want the game to be, the scores have almost nothing to do with the quality of a game (they only make their judgements on how simple/easy and aesthetically pleasing it is). ]

  • http://www.conquerorworm.net noobule

    Hey guys I think Auro’s looking pretty neat AND I find your commentary on the shitty state of the modern games industry and culture around it refreshingly critical and articulate and backed up by oh can you believe it reasoned educated arguments and not a bunch of first year arts wank about what it means to ‘be’ through the medium of tetriminos and endless mindless butthuffing over everything shat out by the lovecraftian madness machines we call the major publishers so thanks for that

  • Yemala

    It isn’t the content, it’s the attitude. The posts on this blog are overwhelmingly negative, and the pretention comes from the ‘everything is shit, and we’re advancing the industry by pointing it out’ attitude.

    You guys just aren’t making positive points, or if you are, they are lost in your bile.

    Are there problems with all the games you listed? Yes. Does calling them all out as having no redeeming features make you seem like pretentious hipsters? Yes.

    While you make an interesting point in the end, your ‘criticism’ of other games seems to involve you shitting all over them, not actually saying anything constructive.

    And your replies in comments don’t help.

    • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

      Well, I appreciate the comment.

  • http://www.theandrewblog.net Andrew Blog

    Hi Keith, I’m the guy whose article you rag on in this piece.

    In response to your criticisms:

    First and foremost: I didn’t just come up with the subjectivity of art thing out of nowhere. I spent a pretty in depth article discussing why, even though I was generally unable to “get” modern art, I wouldn’t deny its validity or its ability to move others, and thus wouldn’t deny its status as art, even if it’s lost on me. Yes, that means subjectivity, but I would argue that 1. it’s subjectivity about whether a piece of art is moving or effective, not whether it’s art in the first instance and 2. I think that’s a reason to be inclusive in terms of what’s considered art, rather than to narrow the definition. Now maybe when you combine that with Ebert you get into some weird art equivalent of moral relativism problems (i.e. if you’re tolerant, do you tolerate intolerance?) but I don’t think it’s quite the oxymoron you make it out to be. Certainly, even if art is subjective we can discuss the qualities that we find moving or effective, regardless of whether we think our opinions are definitive or objective on the subject.

    Second, I realize I’m not the first person to discuss Ebert’s statements. The impetus for the article was really just my having played Braid and wanting to discuss what did and did not work for me in the game. The “video games as art” seemed like an interesting and fun lens through which to do so, and for better or worse, Ebert is the popular vanguard on that opposing front, so I discussed his comments. The goal was not to be cutting edge, more just to discuss a game that made me think and a topic that I find interesting. Moreover, the point was not to cut Ebert down, it was to engage with his ideas, regardless of whether he’s recanted, and to talk about the problems of denying the potential for any new medium to reach artistic heights. I firmly believe that an idea can be worthwhile to engage with wholly independent of the person who presented it.

    Third, in terms of whether something can be “high art,” I used the term because it seemed to be Ebert’s contention that maybe games could qualify as “art” in the barest sense of the word, but that they could never match something like Citizen Kane or Brothers Karamazov or Starry Night. The term was a shortcut to avoid having to repeat that comparison every paragraph.

    Finally, I have no shame about playing video games that are “just games.” I’ve spent countless hours and had incredibly fun times playing those games like Pacman and Super Mario Bros. Hell, some of the best times I’ve had have involved rousing competitions with friends at Wii Sports or time spent in alternating joy and frustration through multiple generations of Mario Kart. The difference is that I would understand, if that’s Ebert’s conception of games, why he doesn’t think they can match up with something like The Godfather. There’s an absolutely unapologetic and necessary place for those sorts of games; they’re enjoyable and entertaining and are achievements in and of themselves, but there’s also a place for games that want to use the medium to express something on par with the great works of cinema and literature. There’s no shame in there being room for both.

    Anyway, if you’re apt to talk to a purveyor of “nonsense geysers” like me, I’d be happy to discuss the topics raised in both of our posts further. Maybe for a piece we could add to both of our sites?

    All the best,
    Andrew

    • http://www.theandrewblog.net Andrew Blog

      BTW, I tried to link it in both my article and my comment here, but here’s the separate article where I discuss art more generally and reached my conclusions about subjectivity: http://www.theandrewblog.net/2011/08/08/the-untrained-eye-or-the-art-museum-has-no-clothes/

      • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

        “Which begs the question – how do we reach any sort of consensus as to what makes great art, when art itself is so inherently subjective? ”

        There’s your problem right there. “Great”. Great is a subjective term and yet you’re blending it in with this objectively defined “art” term. There is no objective “great art” or “great” anything. So yes, THAT is subjective.

        What art is, however, is not subjective.

    • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

      Firstly, thanks for your gracious response. Sorry if you felt like I singled you out. You seem like a reasonable person but there is just this swath of articles *like* yours and I felt it made a very good example for my point. Most of the article, for what it’s worth, I don’t really take issue with; mostly just the beginning.

      In your first paragraph, you’re conflating whether something has value (i.e., whether something is “good”, or if one “likes it”), with whether something is art. My position is that anything that required creativity to create is art, even if nobody likes it at all. And if everyone loves it more than their own mothers, it’s still art – we don’t need to create a higher “class” of art so that we can collectively put our tastes above others. Who cares that Ebert thinks Citizen Kane is the best movie? Why do we have to create a new class just for that?

      This is why it sucks that we have this “art games” and “games as art” things: because the people saying these things clearly value “art” above “non-art”. So it just becomes this way to say “my opinion is better than yours”, and, like I said in the article, it’s a defense mechanism against game-shame.

      Let’s chat via email or something further? email me at keithburgun@dinofarmgames.com

      • Bret

        Note that Andrew communicates what he wants to say to you without any negativity whatsoever. He didn’t need it to defend his article, and you don’t need it in your blogs.

        • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

          Bret, if you’re still arguing against me using negativity to construct arguments, just drop it. It isn’t going to happen. Negativity is equally as important and useful as positivity, and other developers and game experts are doing a great disservice to us by avoiding saying anything that might upset our sensibilities.

  • Blake

    Bret, we appreciate your comment. The reason we speak with such ire is because the problems in games like Skyrim, for example, are so numerous and glaring we’re astounded at its general response. The only thing that matches its broken, lazy design in scope is the amount of praise and lack of in-depth critique it gets. The critique it DOES get are nit picky things that don’t point to what’s fundamentally wrong with the game at its core. Kind of like people who criticize Jar Jar Binks in the Star Wars prequels when he’s the LEAST of those scripts’ problems.

    While I agree that Dinofarm could stand to be more positive, and we’ve discussed modifying the tone of our posts extensively, I don’t know where the word “pretentious” comes from.

    “making usually unjustified or excessive claims (as of value or standing) <the pretentious fraud who assumes a love of culture that is alien to him"

    "expressive of affected, unwarranted, or exaggerated importance, worth, or stature"

    In other words, "talking about things you know nothing about as if you know everything." In other OTHER words, "putting on a pretense of knowledge, importance, authority, etc."

    We know very well our level of stature, importance and influence, which is very low. We also provide coherent, well-informed, consistent arguments with plenty of straight, clear talk.

    This is not pretension.

    Call us snobs, elitist, haughty, self-righteous, etc. I would argue against those accusations as well, but if you're going to attack our characters, at least pick a libel more founded.

    But yes, we will try to be more positive. That doesn't mean we won't say things we believe need to be said, and that nobody is saying.

    • Bret

      I appreciate your comment as well Blake. I will try to refrain from the name calling. I explained some of why the word pretentious is valid, up with my comment to Keith. Know that I mean not to be insulting. I’m sorry if you have been offended. I will try to explain my point of view.

      First, saying that you know very well of your stature, even if you claim it is ‘low’, can also be seen as a pretentious comment. Many people don’t claim to know how important or not important they are. I am not saying you guys can’t look at yourselves and justify that you yourselves are not pretentious – but the general public doesn’t know you like that. The public will always lack the proper information about why you guys are the way you are. It is not my concern that you think ‘you’ are not pretentious. My concern is that you haven’t thought about why everyone else thinks you are. And to be honest, Keith is the one that gets the brunt of these attacks. But, you seem to show the most appreciation and tact in the face of these negative comments. I’ve actually liked most of what you have had to say because of it. I think Keith needs a little more of that, especially because he is writing more of the posts on here.

      I am particularly happy that you said you would try to be more positive or that both of you would be. I am all for the concept of saying what needs to be said. I humbly suggest that you continue appreciating your audience just like you have done for me with your comment. I believe there is a way to say what you guys are trying to say without being negative.

      • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

        I’m not going to avoid being negative if the logic leads us to a destructive conclusion. You can’t advance without being negative sometimes. Like, okay, let’s say we live in a world where like just about everyone is racist; America in like, 1600 or something. In order to advance from that point, someone has to say “you know what, racism is WRONG, it sucks, and racists are being jerks”. Will that upset some people? Yes. Is it still something that needs to be said? Yes. Hopefully you can finally understand how negativity is equally as important and useful as positivity, and quit it with your bias.

        If you want a sunshine and lollipops, everything-is-great blog, chose any one of the rest of them. On this one, we’re honest.

        • Bret

          I don’t think you understand what I’m really saying then, because sunshine and lollipops have nothing to do with it. It’s okay with me if you don’t take my advice. I can only hope it gives you something to think about when you get a lot of blowback from your audience. I actually want to take part in the other debate.

  • Pingback: Superlicious | Superlevel

  • embarrassing

    If you want a game to be endlessly replayable you’d have to be retarded, which healthy person wants to devote their life to 1 game…

    • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

      Some games that plenty of people *do* devote their entire lives to are games like Chess and Go. The people who do this are far from “retarded”.

      If you’re thinking of video games, it’s sadly true that for MOST of them, you *would* have to be retarded to endlessly replay them, because they just aren’t built for that. Some games come close, though; games like Starcraft and Street Fighter, for instance. The only reason that we don’t have more games that can be played forever is that videogame developers aren’t trying.

      • harborpirate

        I replay my way through X-COM, Dwarf Fortress, and a select few roguelikes pretty often. I certainly would appreciate there being more games like these that continually provide new challenges.

        There is certainly a place for games that are only interesting once. I’m disappointed that those games comprise the vast majority of the industry, but not surprised. People go to action movies to see simple stories with simple themes and black-and-white morality. Rare is the movie that challenges the intellect that the masses bother to go see; the audience neither asks nor wants to be challenged. People want simple, they want easy, they don’t want to have to work to figure out the narrative.

        The sad part for me is that we’ve built these amazing machines that, in concert with player input, can create entirely new situations (and thus new implied narratives) that no one has encountered before; but instead we use them to create pretty looking movies that require the user to push a few more buttons before doling out the next portion of pre-defined story, or if the developer is really pushing the envelope, a fancy choose-your-own-adventure. We’re capable of creating actual experiences where the player truly is driving the narrative; real adventures realized through a virtual context. Instead we use all this technology to create at-home theme park rides; virtual experiences where nothing was risked and thus little was gained.

        I’ve seen vitriol and venom from deluded gamers that believe that a procedurally generated game cannot tell a story, and that somehow a pre-defined narrative is implicitly better. To me, that is the hill that we must climb as developers. We’re going to have to prove them wrong, over and over again. Until then, you’ll continue to get gamers that insist with all seriousness that “every character, every plot point, every building, every pixel in the game should be designed by hand”.

  • Jonathan

    I admire Dinofarm’s courage and integrity. I certainly hope they don’t resort to lying and bullshitting to sell me their games or sugar coating their opinion to avoid offending their detractors.

    Your blog is intelligent, insightful, thought provoking and often hilarious; qualities rarely found in video game discourse.

    • Wes Paugh

      > I admire Dinofarm’s courage and integrity.

      Read the last entry on Facade, and check out the comments. Keith admits to the conclusion he reaches as being nothing but an attempt to discredit people with a different opinion. He willfully ignores the good elements of the game’s design , and uses the game’s technical limitations to invalidate an entire school of thought when he hadn’t even played long enough to discover core mechanics. He is manipulating you.

      • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

        I do NOT admit that, Wes, and you are dishonest for saying so. The game is not well designed. It is a dancing bear of game design, I stand by that. Also, again, Im not using Facade to dismiss that entire school of thought, it’s just one single piece of anecdotal evidence that supports something I already thought because of logic.

        • Wes Paugh

          > Granted, the talking-point line was a cheap shot.
          ~Keith Burgun

          The talking-point line is your entire concluding paragraph, and there are examples of similar lines throughout.

          > Also, again, Im not using Facade to dismiss that entire school of thought,

          Facade is an entire school of thought, separate from the one your ‘games hurt stories, stories hurt games’ mantra was founded against. You discredit Facade’s school goals based on it as the only example of it.

          > I understand Facade’s gamey qualities, I just think they are uninteresting.
          Well, you could have done your readers the service of at least addressing those qualities, so they can see if they’re interesting for themselves.

          I’m not interested in arguing Facade (here) any longer. You moved on from that, so I will, too. But you make it all to easy to demonstrate your willingness to manipulate your readers, rather than persuade them.

          • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

            Yes. That LINE was a cheap shot. If you meant my literal “conclusion” section, and not “the thesis of the article”, then I understand where we’re disconnected. Yes, the conclusion was cheap, but I stand by the overall point of the article.

            Facade is a natural extension of systems that have come before, like Planescape Torment. So it’s actually NOT a school of thought all its own.

            How do I “manipulate”, again? You never explained that.

            • Wes Paugh

              > How do I “manipulate”, again?
              By suppressing your knowledge of the game design inherent in Facade and then attempting to draw a conclusion that its design goals aren’t valid, all based on a very loose or narrow understanding of those goals. Oh, and by discrediting the people that brought your attention to the game, and the developers intent in making it, throughout the entire article.

              > Facade is a natural extension of systems that have come before, like Planescape Torment

              I know that I, at least, have explained to you the fundamental difference between adding story decisions to a game design by using dialog trees and actually designing gameplay to generate stories. You knew of this prior to writing this review. I know because I’ve explained it to you that unification of story and gameplay is a unique approach to game design. If you have some logic stating otherwise, you failed to address it in your blog, instead relying on your mantra to let readers assume there are none that would argue how the two are different.
              You make the following argument in your blog: “1) Facade isn’t a game. 2) It does what it does poorly. 3) The people that argue for it are dishonest. Conclusion: it’s of no value to game design”. Point 1 is willful ignorance, since it doesn’t explain the whole truth, as you believe it, to your readers, nor that there even is topic for debate. It also doesn’t even wholly support the conclusion. Point 2 makes for a fair review, but is not fair support of that conclusion. Point 3 is manipulation, because you are supporting your claim with something besides logic, and besides, its blatantly irrelevant to your conclusion.
              So yes, I would say that it is manipulative to give almost no representation of an opposing viewpoint, while simultaneously discrediting proponents of that viewpoint and drawing a conclusion that isn’t supported by your arguments but does, coincidentally, fall in line with your prior beliefs on the subject.

              • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

                I acknowledge the game design of Facade, but it’s pretty clear that, if we’re judging it as a game, it comes up VERY short. I think you might be confusing just “design” with “game design”. I think if we judge Facade by its own standards it’s sort of OK-ish, I just also think that what Facade is even trying to do is a bad idea.

                >I know that I, at least, have explained to you the fundamental difference between adding story decisions to a game design by using dialog trees and actually designing gameplay to generate stories

                I get the concept of that, but I don’t see Facade as being a story “generator”. I think it still has trees, just like PS:T, only more complex.

                • Wes Paugh

                  > I acknowledge the game design of Facade

                  Yes. 8 comments deep. If you had mentioned in the blog itself, or posted an update as you did for Rune Raiders, that the game had ambiguous decisions, a state space with fairly intricate transitions, and agents with decision-making ability that isn’t entirely pre-defined or static, I wouldn’t still be bothered by the manipulation.

                  > I think it still has trees, just like PS:T, only more complex.
                  You know what else has trees? Chess, Go, and every other game ever made. That statement is further evidence that you don’t understand or appreciate the design goal. This is another point I’ve made to you in the past.

                  Despite knowing all this, you still made the blog post the way you made it, as though you were sincerely ignorant of even the existence of these arguments.

                  > if we’re judging it as a game, it comes up VERY short
                  What I’ve reiterated in almost every comment is that you gave a very fair review. What is unfair, and manipulative, is how that fact necessarily damns the any game that attempts to do what Facade was trying to do.

                  > I just also think that what Facade is even trying to do is a bad idea.
                  Yes, and you get more supporters to that opinion if you conveniently leave out that it has any good game design. Again, that’s manipulation.

                • Adam Schneider

                  Dwarf Fortress is the only computer-based “story generator” I can think of offhand. I wouldn’t really call it a game.

                  • Wes Paugh

                    I agree, it isn’t, by Keith’s standards, strictly a game. I don’t agree with Keith’s standards, because in the case of Facade or Dwarf Fortress, the addition of a “You win!” or “You Lose!” screen, with no other changes, suddenly makes them games. That not only seems a bit silly to me, but it also requires that we stop thinking of games that have existed, in all likelihood, since we’ve been people, as games.

                    But! Independent of Keith’s standards labeling Facade as game or not, someone could make a game similar to Facade, that has a win / lose screen, and is packed with interesting decisions and thought-provoking gameplay that results in a story being told. I’ve yet to hear an argument that such a game that fits Keith’s use of the word couldn’t be made, yet he is still advocating that no one try.

                    • Blake

                      you’re lookin’ at it all wrong. A designed level for a real time platformer is a puzzle. Plan and simple. They are, by their nature, disposable, in a similar way to stories. You don’t revisit a film you’ve already seen or a level of super mario brothers you’ve already mastered for the same reason you sought them in the first place, and revisiting a narrative or puzzle at all is somewhat of a rarity(most of us have only a handful of movies out of the hundreds that we watch which we view more than once.)

                      The only way for a non random, single player platformer to survive is to start treating them like daily word puzzles in a newspaper. You hire a professional level designer to make more and more and more and more puzzles. Angry birds is successful for this reason. The original Mario brothers 2(japanese version) was just a level exansion. More puzzles.

                      It’s quite a large jump to compare these animals to roguelikes. the “level design” or layout of the tiles is not nearly as important as the other random elements. The game is not about spacial, movement based puzzles you need to execute in real time. It’s about adapting your situation to new combinations of enemies, hazards, circumstances, etc. So no, roguelikes are certainly not out the window. Smarter randomization algorithms will certainly improve any software with random elements, but roguelikes would benefit less from this than a platformer, which has a LONG way to go before we can have “Smart” randomization that likens a competent level(puzzle) designer.

                      As far as interactive fiction or procedural story generation? Yes, the technology isn’t there. Not even close.

                      I don’t know how else to make my case. Watch a disney short, or a pixar short. The craft of story ensures that all 8-10 minutes are completely packed with information as lean and focused as possible so that, by the climax, you feel the maximum amount of emotion. Those little curveballs, perfectly timed reaction shots, comedic relief, also perfectly timed. an elegent, incremental curve of stakes, complication and tension, releasing when, and only when it is the perfect engineered moment. The art of story needs a NON interactive space to reach these heights of evocation. Take the pixar short and incorporate interactivity, when any joker can make decisions about how this story should be told rather than a trained, professional writer…better, a TEAM of writers, which mostly is the case. How are we so audacious to think that the average consumer, or a limited computer algorithm can come close?

                      Facade is an advent calendar, just like monkey island. It may be more complex, it may have more windows you can open, but those windows, and the chocolates inside, are finite. Adding windows and chocolates doesn’t make the design any deeper. It just increases the amount of time you need to spend on the software to get all the chocolates. Once the windows have all been opened, you dispose of the software. This is not visionary, or sophisticated, or an example of a “good stab” at what you’re proposing. It’s the same shallow gimmick we’ve seen for decades.

                    • Wes Paugh

                      My point about randomization is that I could work on perfecting 100 Rogues randomizer for levels, item drops, monster spawns, etc., and I would *never* get it to where it it generated levels that were more perfectly balanced than if I hard-coded them. That’s true of anything with randomization. The reason we don’t do that is because, as you say, it would become a puzzle. Even if randomizing a level inadvertently gives you the occasional battle that’s a little easier than would be ideal, the benefit of having infinite replayability far outweighs the imperfections. And you can always make better randomizers; in the case of dwarf fortress, it can be done by reducing the incidence of events that do not immediately create interesting story components (it’s trickier than that, I’m sure, but it’s certainly feasible).
                      It shouldn’t be viewed as a negative that procedurally generated stories are ‘worse’ than their hand-crafted counterparts. Interactivity is what would allow more stories to be replayable, and that’s entirely what Facade is trying to establish as a goal worth pursuing.
                      No matter how few audio clips or facts there are to uncover in Facade, its game part comes from the complexity of social pressure, relationships and dialog. Trip might end the relationship out of guilt for his affair, but how can you get him to get that off his chest without Grace up and leaving? Learning that Trip had an affair isn’t the point of experiencing and re-experiencing the story. It’s not about learning those facts and hearing those audio clips until you’ve exhausted all combinations, it’s about engaging in a game of persuasion. There are as many ways to sway the ebb and flow of a conversation as there are a chess game. Neither can be exhausted of interesting experiences.

                  • Blake

                    If by “story generator” you mean it weaves a complex sequence of events that you watch unfold, then I suppose, technically, it is. But does it generate “good” stories? It’s a pretty easy answer for anyone acquainted even a little bit with the art of story. No, it isn’t.

                    A skilled author slaves over one scene, getting it not only perfect within itself, but making sure its woven into the fabric of plot threads throughout, that it’s TIMED perfectly, that it’s PACED perfectly. These toils are for the purpose of minimizing any chance of wasting the audience’s time and maximizing the emotionally complete experience of following a beautifully crafted story through to its climax.

                    Dwarf fortress can NEVER do this. There is no regard for YOUR time, or act structure, or character arcs or act climaxes. it’s just a sequence of events generating. In any given hour of play, something interesting might happen, you may even find a large sequence of a DF session interesting, or coming close to some semblance of a decent story on its own, but these are happy accidents.

                    DF supports “games hurt stories, stories hurt games.”

                    who wants to watch DOZENS of hours of boring banal crap before something interesting happens in DF? What if you went to the movie theater and you saw a 10 hour film in which something interesting happens for maybe 5 minutes of that? Why do you think the art of story through all known time tends to be a lean, focused, minimal art form and not a self-indulgent, bloated free-for-all? Why can this be seen as a GOOD thing when it’s suddenly put into a piece of interactive software?

                    • Wes Paugh

                      “If by “level generator” you mean it weaves a complex sequence of rooms and hallways that you explore and fight in, then I suppose, technically, it is. But does it generate “good” levels? It’s a pretty easy answer for anyone acquainted even a little bit with the art of level design. No, it isn’t.”

                      So we should probably get rid of any random level generation in games, as well, in favor of only handcrafted maps? There go roguelikes, I suppose.

                      It’s one of the arguments to keeping theater alive. With film, the creative team has slaved over camera angle, lighting, editing, and chosen the best of many actor’s performance takes to create the best singular experience possible. Theater is alive, meaning each night something might be better, worse or just different than the night before, and that’s part of what makes it brilliant and endlessly enjoyable.

                      If you’re saying we just don’t have the technology to do many kinds of stories the justice they deserve using gameplay, then you’re right… for now. Either you’re claiming to know the limits of technology, or your claiming that dynamic storytelling is a subset of game design that may be possible, but has no value *to you*. If it’s the latter, then holding to the idea that we still shouldn’t do it just means you think your opinion is more valuable than those who appreciate that quality of live theater.

                      All good games are good story generators, because they all express conflict in the same way good stories do, though they mostly don’t generate stories about character growth or personality conflicts. Really it’s just a question of appropriate theming and developing the supportive AI to get stories to where they need to be.

                    • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

                      (Apparently wordpress only allows comment-nesting up to 10 levels, so I’m replying to Blake even though I’m replying to Wes)

                      I don’t appreciate the “You Lose!” or “You Win!” screen thing. It’s like you don’t recognize that competition is actually a legitimate thing. It’s not about the “screen”, obviously, it’s about the fact that the system has a goal which can be achieved or not achieved. Do you really not understand this? Obviously Chess doesn’t have a “you win screen”. But it clearly has a goal; a win condition.

                      >>I just also think that what Facade is even trying to do is a bad idea.
                      >Yes, and you get more supporters to that opinion if you conveniently leave out that it has any good game design. Again, that’s manipulation.

                      I don’t think it has good game design. I think it’s very badly designed (as a game) AND I think what they’re going for is a bad idea. You can disagree but you can’t say it’s manipulative.

                    • Wes Paugh

                      > I don’t think it has good game design. I think it’s very badly designed (as a game) AND I think what they’re going for is a bad idea. You can disagree but you can’t say it’s manipulative.

                      I don’t think I can spell out any more clearly that its design embodies your criteria for good game design. The fact is clear as day to me that there are “agents competing by making decisions”, and that the game space is intricate and requires skill, planning and strategy to be successful. It’s so obvious, that I sincerely cannot fathom why you couldn’t even state int the post or in an update that the game exhibits these attributes, never mind the quality of those attributes, apart from wanting to give your beliefs more credit than a fair representation of your understanding would provide. Given that, it is not possible for me to see your stubbornness as anything but manipulation.

                      > I don’t appreciate the “You Lose!” or “You Win!” screen thing. It’s like you don’t recognize that competition is actually a legitimate thing.

                      I do recognize that competition is legitimate. That’s why I’m an advocate for Facade’s approach to game story rather than a Bioware game’s. What I don’t get is why you can’t identify that competition exists in conversations, or how that fact can be leveraged to create interesting gameplay that happens to result in stories. Since you can’t see the inherent competition in choosing words and persuading views, I provided the ‘you win!’ screen to make it plain.

                    • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

                      Wes, adding a clear winning condition to Facade does not make it a good game. Why? Firstly, I’m almost positive it’s just a puzzle: feeding the same information into it will result in the same results, so you really just need to memorize the correct actions. This is not good.

                      Further, while good games have ambiguous decisions, the decisions you have to make in this “game” are completely blind. Oh, someone is calling up on the telephone. Should I answer it? I have absolutely ZERO in-system information by which to make that decision, and worse, I never will. I can only memorize that “picking up that phone leads to this specific tree result”. This is not interesting or nuanced.

                      It’s just more complicated simon says.

                    • Wes Paugh

                      Yes, and in the same light chess is a puzzle; there are a finite number of possible chess games, and a finite number of “moves” you an make in facade. If a chess agent always picks its highest-utility move, chess becomes a puzzle, and even if the opponent isn’t deterministic, there is a finite number of possible games to solve. The important thing to remember is that, in neither of the game designs are you even remotely likely to exhaust all possibilities. You could answer the phone, wait three rings and answer the phone, tell grace to answer the phone, yell at grace to answer the phone, pick the phone up and hang I up withou answering, screen the call, answer and have a full conversation. You say these are too ambiguous, but I say it ought to be pretty obvious, by design, what your actions do, for the most part. But there is skill and strategy in making your decisions. Easy to earn, difficult to master.
                      I don’t think that you can prove that facade agents are deterministic, either. If you can, then please, prove me wrong.

                    • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

                      They’re either deterministic, or the computer actually understands what it means to a person to wait 2, or 3 rings. Like, not in the “okay it was 2 rings, activate tree 3″ way, but in a “I understand what that actually would feel like and so the person will react, naturally and in an emergent way that makes sense”.

                      In short: either there’s real, human-level sentient AI there, or it’s just a bunch of nodes hard programmed.

                    • Wes Paugh

                      That last statement isn’t strictly true, since determinism can be achieved in other ways (randomizing the degree to which relationship / mood variables are altered in response to input, for example, in the same way and for the same reason that a Kobold might deal 2 damage or 3 damage).
                      But, I will give you that, unless a computer actually does distinguish between every possible choice you make, you are working with an ambiguous move set, which isn’t the best game design. Still, it is a very different thing to say that a design cannot be implemented with current technology and to say that it is a broken design.

                    • Wes Paugh

                      That last statement isn’t strictly true, since nondeterminism can be achieved in other ways (randomizing the degree to which relationship / mood variables are altered in response to input, for example, in the same way and for the same reason that a Kobold might deal 2 damage or 3 damage).
                      But, I will give you that, unless a computer actually does distinguish between every possible choice you make, you are working with an ambiguous move set, which isn’t the best game design. Still, it is a very different thing to say that a design cannot be implemented with current technology and to say that it is a broken design.

                    • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

                      Here’s the issue: Go shapes, street fighter moves, roguelike dungeons — these are all things that a computer can generate on the fly with coherence. These things can adapt to player input in a truly emergent way.

                      Human language, human emotions — which is what Facade or any story-game would be working with — are not something that a computer can generate on the fly with coherence.

                      EDIT: For this reason, we have to basically hard code a fuck ton of non-emergent “if-thens”.

                    • Wes Paugh

                      I understand that to be your belief, but you cannot prove it, or even really begin to discuss the tech that does exist or how it might advance.

                    • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

                      I understand how to improve it. Develop a human-like level of artificial intelligence, and then we can have game-stories that generate stories that are as good as improv. To generate great stories, we would need AI to be hundreds or thousands of times smarter than the best authors humanity has ever seen.

                    • Wes Paugh

                      Put another way: “I understand how to improve AI: you just improve the AI. But you have to do it by a lot, so that’s how I know it can’t be done”.

                    • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

                      Not “a lot”. A colossal amount. An amount so large that, if it does happen, we would be living in a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WORLD. It would revolutionize EVERYTHING and just about everyone from almost every field of science would have to revise a ton of things we had accepted as fact before it.

                      When it happens, we can revisit the issue. For now, it’s well outside the scope of “things that are currently possible” that I can safely dismiss it in guiding game designers of today.

                    • Wes Paugh

                      > we would be living in a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WORLD. It would revolutionize EVERYTHING

                      Hey, yeah, you’re right! That sounds so cool, I really want to get to work on making that happen by trying to improve on Facade’s implementation!
                      Oh wait, nope, Keith says we shouldn’t until we’ve already done it.

                    • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

                      Yeah, because it’s going to be game designers that develop this technology =]

                      Wes, game designers aren’t going to be the ones to discover better-than-human AI. I am a game designer and I write theory on game design. Programmers, engineers, psychologists, neuroscientists and god knows what other types of scientists will all have to come together to create the kind of technology that would be required for your fantasy story game.

                      I would never tell programmers interested in AI to “not research it”. I would tell someone interested in game design that currently, the technology is nowhere NEAR where it would have to be to make a good game out of dialogue and story, and so therefore their efforts are better placed doing something else.

                    • Wes Paugh

                      Social gameplay, whih is at least a component if not an outright equivalency class of story games, can’t really be explored without AI agents. AI agents that pass the Turing test are the height of development that needs to be reached to guarantee those games reach their full potential. Turing himself denounced the Turing test as having any no practical applications in society. Social games are the one place that advancement is likely to happen.
                      So, game designers that want to explore social games need to dip their toes into the AI theory and start making more facadelike games if we’re ever going to get there. AI developers need help from game designers along the way to, if nothing else, flesh out the design requirements and continue testing the progress and providing valuable results from the effort (games).
                      You don’t help game design by helping prevent people from being interested in one area of game design so that they can contribute to another, and you certainly don’t do your image any good by manipulating your readers by denying that there’s any value to exploring social gameplay or facadelike game designs.
                      In the end, you’re still doing what you can to stop game designers from Contributing to the creation of valuable games. Your reasons for doing so don’t justify the fact.

      • http://blown-to-bits.blogspot.com/ Kdansky

        I stopped replying on your posts in that thread because I found it insufferable when you put words into Keith’s mouth for the fifth time. And here, you are doing it again.

        Guys, did you know that Wes said that he has a small penis? – How funny.

        • Wes Paugh

          Am I wrong though? Keith, please correct anything I’ve said. For example, that you believe Super Meat Boy is not a good game as it is almost entirely a puzzle.
          I disagree with Keith’s beliefs, but I understand them thoroughly and suppose them for the sake of argument, because I know that they produce good games. But, when I see him unfairly condemning social / story games as he did, I can’t just let the fallacy go unchallenged.

  • Adam Schneider

    It seems there are three kinds of commenters on this blog:

    1.) Good job, don’t change a thing.
    2.) Who do you think you are to have an opinion?!
    3.) Let me condescend to you by telling you what you ought to be saying instead.

    I am camp 1.

    • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

      Thanks, Adam!

    • Bret

      I would be in camp 1, but I think Keith should say what he wants to without being so abrasive. He tends to send the average person to camp 2.

      • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

        Bret, maybe if you made 3-4 more comments asking me to be less negative then I would cave and do it?

        • Bret

          I don’t think that’s necessary. I think you know enough to where if your attitude makes things a whole lot worse for you and your company – that you’ll think more on what I’ve said.

          • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

            Dude, I’m telling you, you just need to make like 4 or 5 more comments saying that and it’s going to happen.

  • http://brindlebrothers.blogspot.com John Brindle

    I made a new years’ resolution with regards to my blog to spend as much time as possible analysing specific games and as little time as possible talking about ‘games in general’ or how they ‘should’ be. But that doesn’t mean I can’t post a comment on someone else’s!

    Game shame is a real thing and it’s stupid and should die. When I speak of my writing in the ‘real’ world of work and pubs I do not speak of it with embarrassment or self-depreciating irony. We shouldn’t be ashamed of games at all, even if they are ever ‘frivolous’, ‘pointless’, ‘disposable’, ‘empty’, or anything else; I am not convinced they are, unless they are simply bad ones. The fetishization of the cinematic in videogames is also in general probably quite a bad influence on the industry. But awareness of game shame should not allow us to broadly abandon some things which are useful.

    Comparing videogames to other mediums is not game shame. We have plenty to learn from other mediums, especially if at any point we choose to try and do some of the things they do (I do not suggest that is the only thing we should do). We can make legitimate comparisons between games and other mediums as long as when we do so we do justice to what games are, and how they are different.

    Wanting videogames to be able to (not mandated to) emulate cinema is not game shame. Wanting them to be able to emulate cinema in ways that contradict or diminish their capacity to be good videogames is shameful. In this article by Film Critic Hulk, Attack the Block cinematographer Tom Townend talks about how that movie’s director basically cheated with action scenes, avoiding expensive effects by simply directing them as a series of shots of reaction faces sandwiching brief shots of the action. The example illustrates how important human faces and human reactions are to cinema, and this is a crucial element that videogames find it extremely difficult to emulate. But Uncharted 2 and Shadow of the Colossus make a decent go at it by over-animating their protagonist, giving their movements obvious and almost intrusive vulnerability and frailty. This is clever and interesting work.

    Holding video games to high artistic standards is not game shame. Not everything has to be art, and not everything has to be art by traditional standards. But I am interested in art, unrepentantly so, and I am sound and confident in my definition of it. I am interested in meaningful formal complexity, in works where every aspect and facet of the text relates to every other to the maximum or most interesting extent. That has subjective dimensions (what is ‘interesting’???), but I’m fine with those; the key is formal properties. Videogames can do this, and that means, for me, that some of them should. In many ways there is a long way to go. But in many other ways, there isn’t. I do believe that in order to harp on these theme with even a smidgen of legitimacy you need to recognise what is already amazing about games, the videogames that are already perfectly formed works of beauty, the videogames that are already art by whatever definition. That’s why I made my new year’s resolution in the first place.

    I use the word ‘videogame’ throughout, because I recognise the point of dividing ‘puzzles’ from ‘games’, but we tend to call both of them ‘videogames’, and that is fine in my view.

    P.P.S. You are wrong about Total War. Its developers originally intended to make a “B-title RTS game”; they were trying to enter the market for a genre that was already well established and which was absolutely huge in the 90s. It then grew more complicated with the addition of the tactical layer. It has evolved from there, but the meld of real-time and turn-based action has always been at its core, and the RTS parts came first, not the other way around.

    P.S. You are also wrong about Metal Gear Solid because it is one of the best games ever and everyone who doesn’t think so is wrong to the ends of the earth forever and ever amen

    • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

      Comparing videogames to other mediums is not game shame, that’s true. Even if a few games were to emulate film, that wouldn’t necessarily be an example of game shame. But this extremely wide expectation that videogames are to look as much like films as possible – that, to me, is game shame.

      Like, you can’t show top-down turn based combat in a trailer, for instance. Why? Because it looks too “gamey”. It doesn’t look “cinematic”. Game shame!

      What is your definition of “art”? Is it something beyond “the product of human creativity”?

      Interesting to hear that the bad part about Total War actually came first :D

      • http://brindlebrothers.blogspot.com John Brindle

        Yeah, the culture that expects ‘legitimacy’ to look like Transformers 2 is certainly something we can do without.

        My definition of ‘art’ (maybe I should capitalise the word, to indicate that I am talking about the special, value-laden version of it) was actually outlined above – sorry if that wasn’t clear.

        A work of art is one in which formal aspects and characteristics of the text stand in meaningful relation to each other, even if the meaning produced is ambiguous. Another version of this I have heard is something like “in a work of art a meaningful relation to its themes is the primary purpose and shaping influence on every single element of its formation”. Note the key is the treatment of the themes, not the presence or character of the themes.

        The work of artists is to bring each facet of their work into the most interesting and meaningful relation with each other that they can. As I said, some of that is subjective and complicated.

        A work of GREAT ART is one in which this system of relations is so complicated and/or interesting that it is, for a human being with a finite life and attention span, functionally infinite – in which the artwork PERPETUALLY rewards the capacity of a person to investigate it and scrutinise it and play with it without ever being exhausted.

        Content, theme, message, etc: these are important, but they are almost ancillary. Because anyone can come up with theme; anyone can say “revenge is ultimately pointless” or “power corrupts” or “obsession leads to madness”, but that’s trite and pointless. The virtue of art is always HOW it is about more than, or prior to, WHAT it is about.

        In medieval times and especially during the Renaissance humans came to conceive of art as something that connects God and Man. Man, said Renaissance philosophy, was a crossroads creature, posed at the border between heaven and earth, body and soul – hence the liminal quality of Michaelangelo’s ‘Creation of Adam’. Great art would meet God at the border of the sublime that is his realm. Unfortunately for theologians, though perhaps fortunately for humanity, God does not exist, or is long dead if he ever did.

        But art still does the same thing. All artistic works by definition constitute systems of meaning which respond to inquiry, and the urge of humans to understand them. Check it:

        “The will to knowledge can never rest in knowledge itself; its urge, according to its roots, is immeasurable because, behind every knowledge, new puzzles mount up: A priori, knowledge wants to know more. ‘What one does not know, that is precisely what is needed. / And what one knows, cannot be used.’ Wanting-to-know is an offspring of the desire for power, the striving for expansion, existence, sexuality, pleasure, enjoyment of self, and for anesthesizing the necessity of dying.”
        - Peter Sloterdijk, Critique of Cynical Reason.

        To me, great works of art manage to be systems so complex and so skillfully constructed that they are functionally infinite in their capacity to reward this struggle. One can look into them forever, going deeper and deeper, looking for new knowledge, and constantly gain it – but never seem to exhaust their possibilities, not with a human mind and not in a human lifespan. Great art is either a facsimile or an actual achievement of infinity, but it is man-made, using our own materials and our own cultural systems. And the great thing about the infinite is that you can still analyse it and cut it into parts – but that you never run out.

        The only thing I find difficult to judge by these criteria is punk music, which intuition tells me is worth something more than it would initially appear to be by these standards…but then I’ve never studied it properly, so it’s by the by for now.

        These are, of course, all aesthetic, rather than ontological, criteria. A text is a text. Art is a value judgement, but one that I am confident in making.

        In any case, you can see how this relates to games. You can also see how my view of literary criticism and art criticism generally has been transformed by thinking about games, and how much of the 20th century’s more avant-garde literary criticism may actually apply pretty damn well to them.

        • http://brindlebrothers.blogspot.com John Brindle

          or, if you like: art is about winning too.

  • Jared

    Wow, that was a hell of a post John. Stimulating read.
    Keith & Blake: Haters gonna hate!

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  • http://www.krillbite.com Adrian

    Until the very end of you article, it seemed as though you were treating “game shame” as an inherent attribute that games posses, even though (at least for me) the shame is solely provoked by all the shitty video games that are being produced.

    Mechanics etc. only become something to hide when you have reproduced the same brain dead stuff over and over again. I actually think this tendency is damn worthy of shame. In fact, when comparing the discrimination of games to eg. rasism, I feel like the games themselves are the racists.

    Your attack on the “Let’s Talk about Games As Art”-crowd also strikes me as a bit absurd. This discourse is basically about personal preference, and instead of treating other peoples preference with respect, you dismiss their preferences as a shallow wish for validation.

    I respect the fact that you prefer games with scores and endless replayability, but the catch here is that these kind of games constitute most of todays games! You are basically criticizing a group of people whose preferences differ from you, even though you are the one with the monopoly.

    In movies, the romantic comedy exist peacefully alongside the documentary, and people with different preferences just watch what interests them and don’t whine about the existence of the other. In games, we only have romantic comedies, so naturally the documentary-enthusiasts express dissatisfaction. And, to be blunt, you now seem to characterize this minority as a bunch of pretensious douches…

    • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

      Game shame is neither inherent to videogames, NOR is it entirely due to all of the shitty video games.

      The shittyness of videogames, and the cultural game shame are a “chicken or the egg” situation; they both influence each other. Games get shittier because people don’t respect them, and people respect them less because games are so shitty.

      >the catch here is that these kind of games constitute most of todays games!

      I wish that was true, but it’s not. I suspect that I see where you’re getting confused, though. Most of modern games are not about getting high scores, which represents a perpetual search for mastery. Instead, they are about COLLECTING. Continually adding another +1 to some game file. Can you see the difference?

      • http://www.krillbite.com Adrian

        I can see the difference, but neither high scores and mastery, nor collectables and rewards provide the experiences I personally yearn for. I do not dismiss the value of competitive games, but I am not interested in these games for the same reasons I am not very interested in sports. For me, both approaches demand unnecessary amounts of time, and most often provides either a fictional or very temporal value (personal preference). Their only impact on me is satisfaction through mastery or dull rewards, but I see the potential for a much wider form of experiences than this. I long for a greater diversity in games, but my impression from your post is that you criticize this wish as “pretentious nonsense”.

        I definitely enjoyed the post though, which I guess is not evident in my previous critique. But because of my personal preference for games with other meanings than you, I expect you might characterize me as one of the pretentious anti-intellectuals? If you have the time (and would like an elaboration on my views), please have a look at my blog post:

        http://krillbite.com/blog/05/visioning-games-what-we-can-learn-from-games-like-dear-esther-and-journey/

        • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

          >For me, both approaches demand unnecessary amounts of time,

          To say that learning to play go requires “an unnecessary amount of time” is precisely like saying learning to play the piano requires an unnecessary amount of time. Playing good games is itself an art.

          Just so we’re clear: I am not saying you shouldn’t be experimenting with digital interactive art installations, which is what I think you actually like. I am talking about games as I have defined them: a contest of ambiguous decision-making. If what you’re proposing isn’t a contest, or doesn’t have ambiguous decision making, then I wish you the best in making those things, but they are not what I am talking about at all.

          We should not be putting shit like passage and journey in the same word, game, as stuff like Go and Street Fighter. They are FUNDAMENTALLY different animals and the only reason you’re even thinking of calling them all games is because they are digital and interactive. Well, Microsoft Word is also digital and interactive, is that a game, too?

          I don’t think you’re a pretentious person, you seem down to earth, I just think that this point is something you have missed and that’s the crux of the disagreement here.

          • http://www.krillbite.com Adrian

            I agree wholeheartedly that the words at hand inadequately describe the vast contrast between Starcraft and Journey. But at the same time, we describe both the most serious of documentaries and the silliest of comedies as “movies” without hesitation. I do not think it is productive for one genre to exclude the other from the medium. What I think we need instead is game genres that actually treat a games content instead of its form (If we translate todays game genres to movie genres, we would be using “35mm” and “realistic explosions” to describe our experience instead of “comedy” and “tragedy”.

            But to elaborate on my views, I find competitive / skill-based games to be more similar to sports than music. For instance, being able to do the right action perfectly combined with an overall strategy (like coordinating movement patterns in the team) could both be a description of the technical/physical/strategical capabilities needed for an FPS as well as soccer (or any other sport).

            I’m not saying that sports and competitive games do not have its place, only that there is a potential for a much wider form of experience in the game medium that can’t be obtained if we only treat games as sports (I disagree that “digital interactive art installations” is the way to go, we only need proper genres). For instance, one would have to change the gameplay of chess dramatically if you wanted the player to feel remorse when killing an enemy pawn.

            • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

              I think I’m okay with calling all digital interactive entertainment “videogames”, as long as the word “game” can still refer to a contest of ambiguous decision-making. If not, we definitely DO need a word to refer to that. I think Game is the best word for it, but if you want to propose another, feel free. Maybe “sport” is actually better, although not all sports are games (examples: running race, weightlifting contest).

              My prescriptive definition for games gets to the essence of what makes a game, the fundamental quality. I wrote more on this over at Gamasutra: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/167418/what_makes_a_game.php

  • Arthur Popov

    Wow, you just slammed 3 games that I really enjoyed and the thing is, I can see where you are coming from.
    Just out of curiosity, can you name a few recent games that you enjoyed?

    • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

      I assume you’re asking about only *digital* games. I like tons of recent boardgames but I find that very few digital games step up to the plate in terms of game design. If you want to know what boardgames I’ve really liked let me know, otherwise I’ll just list my favorite digital games from the last 5 years:

      Desktop Dungeons is one of the best. Brilliant, innovative design.

      Zaga-33 is solid (although a bit inflexible on the score system)

      Team Fortress 2 is pretty good, although Valve has been spamming the game with too many items and things.

      Hmmm… Civ IV is alright. I think that was more than 5 years ago, though.

      Portal is solid, but I don’t consider that a game, I consider it a puzzle.

      My own 100 Rogues is pretty cool.

      Super Laser Racer on Steam

      Greed Corp is also pretty cool, on Steam

      Advance Wars: Days of Ruin for NDS is the best Advance Wars

      Mystery Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer (also NDS) is fantastic, although it’s a re-release of a 1995 game so I’m cheating a bit.

      • Adam Schneider

        I’ve heard of all of those except Zaga-33, which I’ll check out tonight. I, for one, would be interested in hearing about the board games you’ve liked.

        • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

          I don’t know if you really care if the boardgames are new or not, given that they’d probably be new to you either way, so who cares… but, my favorite boardgames are Through the Desert (basically a modern Go), Go (might be the best game ever created), Puerto Rico (creepily, eerily well balanced and interesting), and The Resistance (a FANTASTIC traitor-based party game, super elegant and awesome).

          7 Wonders is new, and it’s a good like, entry-into-boardgames party drafting game. Chicago Express is pretty new and it’s a kick-ass track laying and share buying game. Yomi is a cool two-player fighting card game (although it’s quite random).

  • Sam

    So in a reply to my comment you mentioned some japanese only game that I’ll never have the chance to play. Soooo what should I be playing? What are these incredible games that Dinofarm thinks are not trash.

    It’s cool to have negative opinions about other games but I think there could be a bit more explanation as to why you think these games are badly designed. One sentence isn’t exactly justifying your stance, you just look like trolls.

    I genuinely thought you were being ironic… I was like “this can’t be real… from a game company that seems pretty cool… I must have just not got the joke!”.

    You’re also setting some pretty high expectations for your own game. I can’t play 100 Rogues (not sure if it’s just not on Android or if my local Chinese Android market doesn’t have it), but I’ve been looking forward to playing Auro and I just hope you can practice what you preach. Unless you release some perfect masterpiece, people are going to be smirking as they read this article in the future

    • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

      Ask me about a specific game you are thinking of and I will tell you what I think of it and why.

      100 Rogues is indeed not on Android, sadly.

      Also, my games don’t have to be perfect for me to make claims about the level of quality of other games. My games also don’t even have to be *good* for me to make claims about the level of quality of games. In fact, I don’t even have to make games *at all* to do that. Arguments stand on their own merit. If you want clarification on something, please ask.

      PS. You can play Shiren the Wanderer on a SNES emulator. There’s a patched translated rom, it’s quite good.

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