“Retro” Is Not the Answer

I often find games target a “retro” look and/or sound – usually this means some low-res, stylized pixel art, and music made with simple 8-bit synths.  I’m all for that – 100 Rogues qualifies in this way (although we were going for more of a Super Nintendo look/sound, using 16 bit SNES sound-fonts instead of the 8-bit stuff).  In fact, I think that setting a limitation in this way, artistically and musically can be a great help to composers and artists, in that it forces them to focus on the fundamentals of what’s great about the mediums.  For 8-bit music to be good, it just has to have good melody, rhythm, harmony.  It can’t get a pass by having some Arabian sounding woman howling random notes over some giant Hans Zimmer bank-vault door-slam sound effects.

What bothers me, though, is that there are a lot of developers, particularly in the indie scene, who seem to think that the answer is to just copy an old game design.  It is certainly true that in modern digital games, a lot has been lost.  If you go and look to the games from the late 80s or early 90s, you will notice many things that just aren’t found in today’s games:  usually things like “an actual loss condition”, or “a good degree of difficulty”, or “interesting decisions”.  Older games were closer to the fundamentals of games – perhaps if for no other reason, because chronologically they were closer to the days before digital gaming.  But again, just like music and art, the game designers were limited by the technology and forced to focus on the fundamentals of game design in order to make a good game.

So, what’s wrong with just copying games from that era?  Well, a lot is wrong with it.  First off, while older games definitely did a lot right, they also did a lot wrong.  Particularly, I’m thinking about RPGs from the late 80s and early 90s, here.  These games were very unsure of what it was they were trying to do.  They were part simulation, part role-playing, part game.  And what ended up happening was, with all of them, that they were an extremely opaque experience that usually led to a ton of grinding and the necessity of reading FAQs.  I’m talking about games like Wizardry, Ultima, and even to some extent, Fallout.  The games were overly complex, and I don’t mean “for casual players”, I mean they were just too complicated for their own good.  Needlessly complicated, somewhat for the sake of role-playing or simulation (a great example was how many skills there were in Fallout – Outdoorsman?  Doctor?  Gambling?  Who’s going to take these?).

Secondly, copying limits you to only being as good as those games.  That may be good enough for the hardcore fans of those games, but for most people, they’re going to want a new, and preferably better, experience.  One thing that modern games actually have been improving on is user interface (UI).  In the craze to attract more and more people who probably don’t even want to be playing games in the first place, we’ve actually sort of mastered the art of accessibility in games.  Of course, games need to be accessible and deep – that sage wisdom about games being “easy to learn but difficult to master” will always be true.  So again, by copying these old games – yes, we’re copying their strengths, but we’re also copying their weaknesses and holding ourselves back.

Spiderweb Software is one example of a company that pretty much exclusively copies the designs from 15 years ago.  Now, in theory, I should love them, because they are copying games like Fallout and Arcanum, which I consider to be, probably, the best computer role-playing games ever made.  However, Spiderweb is also copying the fundamental weaknesses of those games.

As you can see, we have an incredibly complicated UI here.  No less than SIXTEEN buttons on the bottom of the hud, TWELVE slots to equip something on your character, and a large inventory for all the LOOT in the game.  It doesn’t take a genius game designer to see the weaknesses in this kind of a “loot-oriented” system in a game.  It necessarily becomes busy-work:  Oh, look, leather armor.  That has more armor than this shirt I’m wearing, so let me go into the inventory and equip it!  Oh look, chainmail armor!  I wonder what I should do with this – equip it, maybe?  Now you have all these items, most of which are completely useless garbage whose most exciting destination will be the item shop in town for a few pieces of gold.  Hooray!

What scares me a bit is that when you get into this mindset of simply copying what we were doing 15 years ago, you stop thinking.  You have to, because if you think about it you will realize this sort of stuff.  I found a wonderful example of this in Jeff Vogel’s “Bottom Feeder” blog, in his post titled “Three Rules for Difficulty in RPGs“.

“Observation One: There are two sorts of fights in an RPG: Fights that are supposed to be easy and fights that are supposed to provide a challenge.
In other words, first, there are fights that will almost never ever kill a player, also known as trash, or trash mobs.  If your trash mobs are frequently killing the character, your balance is messed up.  Most of the time, the vast majority of the fights in a game will be this sort.  Then there are fights that the player can possibly lose (mini bosses, bosses).

So, this guy has actually embraced the old game designs so deeply that he is totally incapable of stepping back for a moment and asking himself if these assumptions make sense.  Does it make sense that for most of the “fights” in your game, you can’t possibly lose?  Absolutely not, there can be no tension in a game without the threat of losing.  Does it even qualify as a fight if it’s “supposed to be easy”?  Again, this isn’t difficult stuff, but it’s very interesting, that there are game designers who have got themselves locked down in the “retro” mold so tightly that they can’t ask themselves fundamental questions.

There are many more examples of “pure retro” games that have come out, with varying degrees of validity.  There’s a series of DS games that Atlus publishes called Etrian Odyssey which are basically Wizardry clones.  I find that silly, but at the very least these games are introducing a new crowd – modern DS players – to an old game, Wizardry.  Spiderweb isn’t even doing that – they’re on the same platform with a similar (or maybe even less) visibility as the games they’re copying.

In short, it’s a good thing to learn from the history of games.  But at the end of the day, game design comes down to being able to ask difficult questions and to be flexible.

  • http://blog.tametick.com tametick

    I agree with your premise but I’m not sure I agree with your example: I think you are being a bit ungenerous assuming Jeff arrived at his design choices without reflection.

    In his games (as in, to give another example of an old game, Planescape Torment) the focus is not really on the combat or even on the gameplay – it’s on the story, atmosphere & setting.

    Therefor, these aptly named trash battles don’t need to provide a challenge since they are simply there to illustrate the setting- they are little more than interactive backdrop.

    Whether that makes the game better or worse in my opinion is another matter (I am not personally a fan), but I am pretty sure it’s not a case of the designer not asking questions, but rather of having a totally different goal than you (an interactive fantasy novel?)

    -Ido.

    • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

      If the “trash battles” are “trash”, why are they there? If he wants to express a story, why not write a book, comic or screenplay? It’s true that PS:T had great writing and awful gameplay, and as such, also should have been a book probably. Meaningless interaction has no value.

      • Dither

        The reason for “trash” battles is that they make the player feel powerful. They are satisfying, in a way. They are the RPG equivalent of a zombie in Castlevania, which walks in a straight line and is dispatched with a single hit. Part of role-playing (and not just in RPGs) is imagining you are another person, which includes someone who might be very good at fighting. If every enemy in the game is a serious threat, and every fight a challenge, the sense of power is lost.

        I don’t player Spiderweb games, but the fact that Jeff Vogel has supported a family for decades by making his RPGs, without the help of corporate publishers and retail outlets, and without the “protection” of DRM, tells me he is doing something right. There is a faithful audience that really appreciates his work and is willing to pay for it.

        • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

          I think you cannot just arbitrarily, artificially make the player feel powerful by simply telling him he’s powerful for dropping a marble into a bowl. There’s only one way that the player can feel powerful, and that’s if he actually IS powerful. In games, this usually means that the player is actually exercising a level of actual skill.

      • Bob

        The reason for trash mobs is to pad out content with meaningless fights so you can say your game is 80-120 hours long, so check out our HUGE FREE demo!

      • Andy

        The point of trash in classic RPGs (as well as in Avadon, the one Spiderweb game I’ve played,) is to be difficult enough to put something of a strain on the player’s resources (mana/energy, potions, and health points) to make them play as efficiently as possible. In a game like Avadon where your energy is limited and can only be recovered in finite ways, playing efficiently on trash allows you to conserve enough resources to defeat the boss. The ability of most of the trash in Avadon seemed to do just that, especially in the dungeons, though Spiderweb is somewhat guilty of putting in trash mobs for the sake of having trash mobs.

        But I completely agree that Avadon’s inventory system is a crime against humanity. I thought we were all agreed that having individual character inventories for anything beyond combat items is just tedious.

        • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

          You could make a game that is purely about resource management, and it could be very excellent. However, the resource management in these games is not the focus of the games, it’s more of a side-effect of the theme.

  • http://bnbgaming.com Armand K.

    Spiderweb Software has been making this sort of game for 15 years. They aren’t so much copying an older style as they are continuing a tradition of making the type of games they are known for.

  • Detri

    I certainly agree with your premise – it’s bad to mindlessly copy old games – however I think your examples are more a matter of you disliking complex rpg systems rather than universal bad game design.

    Many indie rpg creators continue the complex style of Fallout, Arcanum, Baldur’s Gate for a reason – people like them. As an rpg player myself I love having tonnes of skills, statistics and plenty of ways to customise my character and inventory. Yes, many people fin this boring or too complicated, but many people do not. The reason these games are still getting made is because many mainstream rpgs do not provide the same depth as their older counterparts because they try to simplify the rpg in order to appeal to a wider audience.

    Now there is nothing wrong with mainstream “simple” rpgs, they are fun in their own right, but this does not mean that new rpg games that follow the classic rpg model are unwanted and outdated as they are definately not. By getting rid of the statistics, customisation and steep learning curves you are also getting rid of things that many people like about these games.

    As for the example you gave from Fallout, without those skills you could not play a gambling, survival specialist Doctor (which is actually a valid way to play and complete the game)!

    • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

      I challenge you to beat the game taking only points in gambling, outdoorsman, and doctor. Seriously =]

  • http://www.benhymers.com Ben Hymers

    I totally agree with you, Keith! I also agree with the other commenters when they say that some players expect things to remain the same (which is perhaps the only reason you’d want to blindly copy past game mechanics), but there are definitely many, many cases where game mechanics are blindly copied to the detriment of the product.

  • embarrassing

    If you haven’t done so already, might want to read icycalm’s stuff:

    http://insomnia.ac/commentary/on_role-playing_games/

    Although you should read all the articles on the side bar.

    • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

      Yeah, I’ve read a good amount of his stuff. It’s alright – honestly I think that he’s a terrible person, but he’s definitely *more* right about games than most people.

  • http://thomasj.bandcamp.com Thomas

    I agree, but is not the point of those “trash battles” to lull the player into a false sense of security. If you get used to fights you can’t lose, you become complacent, and then when a real fight comes up you’re taken by surprise, making it a more engaging fight. I’m not saying it’s an ideal system, but you also don’t want bosses that you can die on but are repetitive.

  • ragnor

    So basicly you are saying that we should use old school graphics and musics but not gameplay. Because it’s complex? As a gamer i find this insulting. I’m not that stupid to be perplexed by SIXTEEN buttons or TWELVE slots. As long as those buttons has some function i can use them and not be frusturated about that. I’m sick and tired of people assuming gamers stupid. No! As a gamer and a developer i’m not accepting that. I’m not stupid and don’t want to play games made by developers assuming i am stupid. And as a developer i refuse to develop games for stupid people. Gamers are not stupid (at least not all of them) and i’m not going to devaluate my players by doing this.

    Also your examples sucks too. As for Fallout all of those “complex” skills have give you different play tastes and you can play and finish the game differently with using any one of them. As for Jeff Vogel, i didn’t play his games but his article you mentioned is a very good one and has some valuable advice in it.

    Yes, sometimes you use trash battles. There are lots of legitimate reasons to use them. This is about the flow of the game. You can’t make the flow always tense. Sometimes you have to ease the moment, sometimes you increase the tension.

    Actually all of my explanation is not important cause i can see that you write this article to provoke people, stir up some discussion and bring more hits to your blog than to write some useful advice.

  • Erez Ben-Aharon

    I can’t quite agree with your premise there, and I shall elaborate:

    1) Jeff Vogel games: I have played and finished most of them, and compared to his previous games (Avernum, and most certainly the old Exiles) the interface in Avadon is FAR less complex (and in fact was mucho blamed by ex-fans for its ‘dumbification’). Also, I believe ‘monsters that can’t kill the players’ is a recent design choice of his that is influenced by modern RPG’s (D&D4E with the concept of ‘minions’, and perhaps the general trend in the industry to ‘open up’ to new market – preferrably iOS.
    I recall dying a plenty by a group of renegade lizardmen many a times in his older style games, and even Avadon has a difficulty level in which you can tweak these design decisions to your liking (although I haven’t tried myself, only ‘normal’ for me, thank you very much).

    2) About Etrian Odyssey saying it is a clone of Wizardry, I feel it is unfair to both Etrian Odyssey and Wizardry. I would agree that it has been influenced by Wizardry (whose influence in Japan goes way way back), but there are too many differences between the two to say they are mere clones (other than the fact they both use blob combat). Heck, there are many differences between the various iterations of Wizardry itself – a discussion of another nature perhaps.

    3) About ‘old school’ games? Well, as a bit of Grognard myself who is currently replaying some of these ‘classics’, I can say that while they did have many problems, there are many things about them that are far superior to the experience provided by games designed for the enjoyment of the ADHD generation. A win in mass effect is a bit of yawn and a sore thumb, a win in Wizardry is a victory dance and 3 nights of feasting. But I digress – I don’t think there is anything wrong in ‘borrowing’ mechanics from old school games (so long as it isn’t the interface – yikes – in this case I do agree most newer games have vastly improved – ironically though Wizardry interface was remarkably clean).

    Cheerios

  • http://blown-to-bits.blogspot.com/ Kdansky

    The example is something that bothers me deeply in current games, especially RPGs (prime example: Bioware). Those games are 95% filler, with a handful of genuinely interesting dialogue choices once every couple hours. All that combat serves no purpose, except make the world feel really silly when bandit # 943 attacks your party, and your “hero” should be called a villain by any moral standard, after having killed thousands of people.

    The solution is something unexpected: Get rid of the filler. Portal 2 does this rather well (and it’s a short game). If that means that there is less combat in the game, well, so be it! It’s not the combat that makes a game interesting, it’s the story that it tells (with the exception of competitive games such as Guilty Gear or Starcraft).

    I am still writing on my own game engine, and I am taking suggestions. Except for one: I decline implementing a combat mechanic. I don’t want there to be redundant combat, so it does not get a system. If there is no system for repetitive combat, the level designer has to come up with something else.

  • Rock Steady

    so… now to bash people who still make commercial crpg games that sell… I see railing against all the roguelike fans failed to sell 100rogues, so I guess now you turn to crpg fans..

    Let me guess, you have the perfect formula for what a crpg is right? Just like what a roguelike is supposed to be (and we know how that turned out!).

    You sound a bit bitter Keith.

    • http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun

      I’m afraid I’m not totally sure what you’re saying here. Do you have a specific disagreement with something I’ve said?

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