Discussion in 'Games (and Other Interactive Entertainment)' started by deluks917, Mar 30, 2014.

  1. deluks917

    deluks917 Well-Known Member

    This is a thread for discussing yomi strategy. Please leave any FS.com politics out of this thread.

    I mean its hard to really hard to start this thread lol. So much one could potentially say. I guess the most obvious place is to discuss what chars are worst picking and why etc. I guess I will ask some questions that are ocurring to me and I cannot answer.

    Question 1:

    How good is Degrey? More specifically who are his countepricks and why? As far as I can tell the only person to jumps to mind as a counter pick is Perse

    Question 2:

    Is BBB/Perse actually that bad (EricF thinks at best 4-6) ? If so does it matter? BBB is so easy to ounterick HARD.

    Question 3:

    What is your own personal approach to dealing with menelker?

    My answer: Personally I either play Grave and accept the unfavor or I swap to zane. The problem with swapping to zane though is Zane is pretty easy to counterpick. In partiuclar he got hit HARD by lum in the past (idk afte rnerfs how bad it is). My personal view is swapping to zane starts a long series of counterpicks (zane vs mene -> zane vs lum -> arg vs lum etc). This usually favors the person who is up in the set I think? Maybe that affect is not strong enough to worry about.

    Of course you can discuss anything you like in the thread as long as it is NOT related to anything "political" abou FS.com. PLEASE try to stay on topic.
    Captain and keithburgun like this.
  2. Bucky

    Bucky Well-Known Member

    Answer to 3:
    Pick Onimaru
    Win combat 6 times
    Pump just enough that 6 combat wins is a kill.
    It doesn't particularly matter what I win combat with.
  3. keithburgun

    keithburgun Administrator, Lead Designer Staff Member

    My opinion of Yomi is pretty low, but I spent a good 2-3 years trying to like it (I guess I still AM trying to like it since I'm in a tournament and stuff), so I think I'm decent enough skill/experience-wise to participate.

    1. Degrey is actually my main character. I've played him the most (followed by Grave, then Midori, then all the Yomi1 characters, then Menelker, then the rest of the Yomi2 guys). I would say he's very strong because of that bonus damage ability, which means his general damage/card ratio is crazy good. His Ace dodge, Pilebunker and his King are all also fantastic. I'm not crazy about TR, since I don't think yomi (reading) is a thing, but if you get it and the 7 you can guarantee a combat win at least, so that's cool. In general I think he's probably like on the 2nd to highest tier. I have no idea about counter picks; I would think that a character who throws a lot would be good; maybe Perse, yeah. I do know I *hate* playing against Perse, but given her role in PS I think that's actually intentional.

    Can't really answer 2, I've played almost no BBB. I will say design wise he seems like the least intriguing character in the entire game maybe (other than Grave, of course).

    3. I also like Grave against Menelker, since Grave is the other "best character". Also since basically everything about Grave is strong, it hurts the least to have Menelker rip up your cards. I wonder if maybe Sets would also be good, since she at least doesn't care about "having to discard cards" and she also doesn't care if she loses her jokers really.

    A side note: I wish no character had an ability that dealt more than 20 damage. I think these 40, 50 damage attacks are just insanely stupid to have in the game, given how "variance-ey" the combat is. I mean you can just luck the fuck out and get 55 damage? Why would you want that in a game?
    deluks917 likes this.
  4. major_shiznick

    major_shiznick Well-Known Member

    Re: DeGrey

    He's been my best character for a while, so here's a rundown on what I think.

    Overall power level: better than average. Tons of matchups in the 4.5-5.5 to 5.5-4.5 range make him really solid in the metagame, with the bonus of a decent showing against Lum. Beating DeGrey mostly involves having a sharp eye for tells that he doesn't have his good cards (esp. 7, Q, K, A) and just have at him while he flails around normal attacks and blocks to stay afloat until he has non-shit combat or combo options. People who fail to identify when he's got a bad hand have substantial overlap with the set of people who whine about his versatility. Idealized in-your-head DeGrey is fully loaded at all times, but he really spends the majority of most games rather vulnerable and toothless. This is why the most important skill for a DeGrey player is the ability to mask your hand and make the opponent fear things they shouldn't, then punch them in the mouth when they wise up to your shit. I play lots of early normals as DeGrey because they can start little combos and dig for cards on hit OR they can run into a block, letting DeGrey grab a card and also feed MHG. Worst case scenario in the early game is they get undercut, which is DeGrey's preferred way to lose combat anyway.

    Oh, counterpicks? Um, Setsuki is still a pretty solid choice. Lots of KD options (Ender K throw!) are always good against DeGrey, and almost totally undermining Moral High Ground means he has to play more like a normal character. Also, sticking out normals is pretty garbage against Setsuki, so that's a lot of thing DeGrey doesn't like. Sure, 70 HP is not good to have against DeGrey, but that's a weakness Setsuki deals with in every matchup. Good thing she draws lots of Jokers!

    Troq is good because of War Stomp, naturally lower functional hand size, lots of anti-normal attack options, and 95 HP to shrug off a Pilebunker or two.

    Menelker is okay because he's Menelker.

    Re BBB:

    He's some joke character that should be rebuilt from the ground up (yet again). I think it's a shame that "mechanically functional" spent so much time at the forefront of his development. Then once that happened, the goal was "no 8-2 or 2-8 matchups" (not a quote, but a reality of the dev process). Maybe there will be a BBB specialist someday who wins despite having significant metagame disadvantage, but ugh. Notice I didn't even speak to the Perse MU because it just doesn't matter.
    deluks917 likes this.
  5. keithburgun

    keithburgun Administrator, Lead Designer Staff Member

    Maybe it would be cool to go over all the 2.0 characters (and any seriously changed 1.0 characters) and talk about what we think of them (balance, and design wise)? I only have opinions of a few, and mostly on the design side.

    I like Menelker, because he gives me the opportunity to remove Jokers from the game, which is the best. I also kinda like the black face card thing. It's stupid, and probably OP, but it feels good to use. I think all his abilities feel good to use, but that's probably because they're all a bit OP.

    Troq is cool, a very very solid character it seems to me, design wise and balance wise. He feels to me like he could have been one of the base characters, and that's a very high compliment. Some of the 2.0 characters feel like... not needed.

    The character the game needed least was BBB, he just seems to have really no clear role.

    Also I like the concept of Gwen but I think she still needs way more work. During the beta she had a WAY cooler rule for her block-break thing. I'm sure it was OP or broken somehow and needed to be changed, but what they have now just feels like... some weird "rule".

    What are people's feelings of Gloria? I always wanted to like her, since I think a "healing based character" is a MAJOR MAJOR underdog from a game design standpoint, let's put it that way. But I like some of her mechanics.

    I hate Vendetta's undo ability (the game DOES NOT need more joker-like bullshit), and I hate Perse completely. If I have to play against Perse I'll basically just give up right then and there, I'd rather lose than play against her. Adding a "FRUSTRATING" character to a game that's already so inherently frustrating seems like a bad idea.

    Not sure how I feel about Onimaru, although I've played him a good amount.

    Zane... probably isn't necessary. He just feels like a big grab bag of weird rules? I have very limited experience with him though so I definitely could be wrong.
    deluks917 likes this.
  6. Captain

    Captain Well-Known Member

    1. Degrey's best counterpick is.... Menelker, and maybe troq and likely Perse, Mene is stupidly OP, but even though Degery has a good mene matchup I like menelker a lot vs anyone else, degrey is the John nash character, you have a really really really crappy 4 (like the worst move in game not close) that is always going to be a dodge, and you can't use jokers at all because jokers have the weakness that you need to play a bluff card to joker ratio of about 2-1 to make jokers good. Otherwise your opponent won't accept your bluff and more importantly if it is early-game they don't lose any damage. However degrey can't bluff at all reliably since he needs every card to deal damage, instead he needs those jokers to find him aces, those aces are actually super good because of the attack form of ace during a combo, it turns every combo into a pretty big damage play often around 30 damage for a simple 2-3 AA string. Degrey's biggest weakness is his jack, his jack is pretty miserible, and is purely combo food, but it is pretty good combo food at least, dealing typically 9 damage for 1 card. Since the mixup of dodge/Normal/Throw is a very scary range to fight (especially with pilebunker in hand)
    3. The best counterpick to menelker is... Degrey and maybe troq (troq might not be crappy as a grappler with non-crappy attacks) Degrey has a high win rate vs menelker, (slightly over 50%) which is the best character vs menelker by quite a bit, maybe Gwen can rush down menelker (please remember to power up for AA, AA is how you deal damage at all) but my personal favorite counter is definitely degrey as degrey is at least #2 and likely beats menelker or is at worst even with menelker
    In terms of yomi being a thing
    Yomi is definitely not a thing to really learn, in order to have yomi over someone you have to be super-human (which daigo is but I am not) also your deck is an RNG for you, the optimal play can change from turn to turn without your opponent knowing what said optimal play is, as such I reccomend playing yomi layer 0 properly (which I failed pretty hardcore vs bomber) and uh almost no one does. The fact of the matter is yomi players play extremely suboptimally in terms of pure valuation, if I am better at valuation than you I will win a huge amount of the time because I just make better plays than you.
  7. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    Brief thoughts-

    I'm mostly ok with the flavor of everyone 2.0. I have thought for awhile BBB is just trying to hard to meet his theme and there might be better ways to do it, but at some point it was "point of no return" and thus he got paragraphs of rules text and his own card icon all for....eh gameplay? Especially interesting to me is your mention of Zane who I feel gets really really close to his source material, and my issue with him has always been the existence of his K as opposed to a different AA, but whatever. That's all flavor.

    Balance/core concept wise(and I admit I suck)-

    Ven- it doesn't bug me that much that acro exists on a concept level since I don't hate jokers, but it does bug me that to make it work there was a lot sacrificed that could've been more fun, and I feel it hurts him balance wise in the long run.

    Zane- i think he's one of the better characters for powerlevel/flavor.

    Mene- it bugs me that mene being strong is ok, but quince being strong is not.

    Perse- My biggest issue is actually just that she's so 1 dimensional. I like alternate win condition concepts, and she's an interesting example of that, but I kinda wish it wasn't her whole game.

    Gwen- Versions of her A alt text have always been an issue mostly because they were almost always inferior to just using her A. I'm not sure which version you were thinking of, but it was almost always better to drop it in a combo than to use the gimmicky ability. I believe this is still a problem.

    Troq- Probably the best 2.0 character in all metrics?

    Oni- I hate that his K is a thing, and that in the end his Face's feel really really boring, but otherwise I think he's fine.

    BBB- been over this.

    Gloria- I actually love how they've handled the healing character, but like perse, i feel like it took over? Gloria has always been odd to me due to her strange options(mini pilebunker and AAA starter?). She feels weak now for sure.

    Quince- was one of my favorite 2.0 characters. I will always despise the Q throw nerf as unnecessary, especially to the level that it was done, and really hurt him.
    deluks917 likes this.
  8. keithburgun

    keithburgun Administrator, Lead Designer Staff Member

    I also love Gloria, I forgot to mention her. I think also I love her because I can kinda just "play with my own little machine" a bit more and not have to rely on the oppressive combats as much.
  9. deluks917

    deluks917 Well-Known Member

    I have a tourny game tomorrow vs jenaga!

    Idk who I am gonna play :(. Lame Jenga plays too many chars.

    If I beat JEnga and play clan then I am just gonna run Grave vs Clan.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
    keithburgun likes this.
  10. Captain

    Captain Well-Known Member

    Play degrey/menelker/maybe sets (sets is good vs top tiers, and is prety solid in genreal but is also the MOST random character in the game, you would need BO 13 before set's strength showed)
  11. deluks917

    deluks917 Well-Known Member


    I do not really think me picking Setsuki is a very good choice. Even my Menelker is a little shacky in some mus :(.

    Probably want to pick from:

    I guess could also throw in a little Mene.

    So probably gonna lead one of those 5 and then counterpick. Idk id ths is a great plan or not though lol.

    I am personally strongly of the opinion thats it much better to play a weaker char you know than a strong one you do not. So I am not gonna play most chars even if I agree they are very good.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
  12. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    Random question for the better players-
    If at the start of the game, you revealed your hands, and then from then on revealed every card you drew/gained, but still hid your hands before you played anything, how much would that change the game? Essentially you'll always know what your opponents options are, but you still won't know what they played facedown.
    keithburgun likes this.
  13. deluks917

    deluks917 Well-Known Member

    This would be a massive disadvantage. If you know their hand you can get MUCH better estimates on the payoffs/risk of various options.
  14. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    Yes, but assuming both players are doing so, i'm curious to know which characters benefit the most, and which are harmed the most.
  15. keithburgun

    keithburgun Administrator, Lead Designer Staff Member

    I've played around with probably 5 or so different similar yomi variants, pitched some of them to the FS boards IIRC. A slightly improved version of your idea Eji is to just have the hand of cards be face up at all times, in a row, and you have another hand of cards with just numbers on them (1 to 12 I guess) which refers to which card you're choosing to play, and you simultaneously reveal that one.
  16. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    I'm not necessarily saying it's better, but it's something to think about. I think a large part of the reason the same players can win consistently is because they're good at reading their opponents play AS WELL as quickly figuring out their opponents hand. I'm wondering how much would change if this was not the case.
  17. CrystalChaos

    CrystalChaos New Member

    It would change the game a lot in general, as players would be essentially forced to keep at least one of each option in hand at all times (probably even/odd blocks as well). Bluff jokers would obviously never happen without a joker in hand, though would probably be more likely overall. It would also make the mathematical/RNG approach much stronger and more consistent.

    Not entirely certain how it would affect characters, but I think that it would probably be most harmful to degrey, as he has pretty slow moves in general and often ends up with very awkward/bad hands. Setsuki might also be weaker, as she often needs to play certain combat options to activate sotf. Midori might also have difficulty winning due to his opponent's knowledge of whether midori has dragon cards/dodges or not. Geiger (especially TD) would likely be much stronger in a number of matchups, as he could be certain of winning combat a lot more often with time spirals etc.
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2014
    deluks917 likes this.
  18. Captain

    Captain Well-Known Member

    hmm this is 2 months old but i'll revive the thread
    So I tried grinding yomi games with gwen, gwen is clearly S tier and is clearly better than every other non-menelker character. I think people underrated the following abilities of gwen
    #1 people liked T to much and don't like dodging enough, Dodging is busted
    #2, people didn't play gwen really at all, so they don't understand her damage potential that well
    #3 Gwen's most busted thing is being so combat win efficent that she can lose 3 combat's in a row and still win
    #4 people underrate how much life she has, she has around 71 life as a character
    #5 She has 0 bad matchups and is likely the pure strategy nash equlibrium of the game

    EDIT perhaps grave is a bad matchup for gwen
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2014
    deluks917 likes this.
  19. deluks917

    deluks917 Well-Known Member

    I won the 16 person bo5 DE today.

    I used Menelker/Degrey/Geiger/Lum. I would have played Zane or Grave if given a reason. I think my 6 chars are bad though. Troq actually seems good and I am not comfy playing him :(.

    For record I went 3-2, 3-1, 3-0, 3-1
  20. Waterd

    Waterd Well-Known Member

    I basically went away from fantasy strike, how is the competitive community of yomi? how often are tournaments run and how many people are on them?

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