Summoner wars

Discussion in 'Games (and Other Interactive Entertainment)' started by Waterd, Oct 2, 2014.

  1. Waterd

    Waterd Well-Known Member

    I decided to make a separate thread to remixing summoner wars since this is not about game design, but just playing the game.
    As you many know I got extremely high fan of SW and has been my post played game last year by far.
    It think with the right variants it just crushes all competition in terms of tactical positional games.

    The reason I created the thread though is that I would like to to create a Vassal and/or Ios League with these variants, and It would be nice of some of the hardcore players around these forums would join, I don´t think without such support I can get a reasonable number of players to start. Last time I got 3 players other than me for the vassal league.
    On Ios Is a lot easier and to be honest I think i can pull it off ANYWAY, but still lit would be nice to have the hardcore people from around here. Sadly I can´t apply all the variants on Ios.
  2. Waterd

    Waterd Well-Known Member

    Also Playdek started a forum and Ive given some slight hope that optional rules may be implemented on the ios software, I don´t know how how real is that, but if having better rules would really make a difference to you, in playing SW on ios, this is the time to show support!
  3. Captain

    Captain Well-Known Member

    I played a lot of this after getting bored with prismata but I have only played tundle and Demagogue recently, Dema being my "main", mostly because demagogue is insane. Dema's ability is much much better than tundle, even though tundle has better champs, dema has better midgame commons better events and a better lategame, though his earlygame is shit. You must build magic like mad to stay alive early, otherwise they can run you over by attacking with their starting commons. One huge thing I found useful is just playing some small number of commons earlygame to keep up the 3 moves/attack going out properly. Also demagogue's ability is so broken that I don't have to worry about actually playing well with you know good tactics to win, just trade resources until they bleed to death, and win because demagogue is broken. Who made this faction anyway?z
    My deck for reference
    The necessary cards (1 cultist 1 zealot the events and 3 walls)

    4 cultist 2 Zealot

    Plan is just build magic like a madman and summon the following cards to win
    claw mutant
    Horror mutant
    Winged mutant
    corpulent mutant
    Spew mutant
    2 walls
    note that the total cost of all of these cards put together is 39 magic, combine that with the total cost of the cards themselves and you have a total cost of 54 magic spent in a single game. If we save 2.5 magic on average from the special summoning card, then we get a total cost of 49, in a 32 card deck that means I need to profitably use demagogues abilty 17 times to get the total cost of all these cards in play. This is unsurprisingly very easy to do, since demagogue is that good. I often use the ability 20 or more times in a single game in order to win.

    How the hell do people win when they don't have infinite magic? Do they like actually care about winnning exchanges or something?
  4. Waterd

    Waterd Well-Known Member

    Before I do my big wall of text. Do you have a device with ios or android?
  5. Captain

    Captain Well-Known Member

    no sadly
  6. Waterd

    Waterd Well-Known Member

    I will have to say that as much i would like to say otherwise, for someone like you getting into SW without such device is not going to be a good experience.
    In the mobile app, tourneys fire every weak, and finding oppoenents of the highest level is very simple just make a thread and they will invite you.
    And soon PLAYDEK will implement ladders and automatic tournament system.

    But in real life, unless you have a small community you can forget about tournaments or competitive play.
    Vassal tournaments fire once every 4 months, and you are lucky if they reach to an end. Getting a game every 2 or 3 weeks , you are getting lucky. The formats are generally terrible and involve crazy rules, the pools are small, the amount of high level players slim.
    Tournament vassal scene is to say the least. Pathetic. I would be happy to start something stronger, but we need more than you and me. And I doubt you will be willing to do that without having a side way at leas of truly playing the game.

    Even on non tournametns, to find players, of whatever level you need to connect at peak hours, to find decent level need miracle or play against me for eternity. So as you wish, but know what you get into.

    Filth is without doubt the second best summoner, but there are a few that can put a fair fight.
  7. Waterd

    Waterd Well-Known Member

    Also most vassal tournaments, one way or another force you to play with different summoners all the time, which means, if your play is just to master one summoner, it´s going to be pointless on vassal. There is only one yearly tournament that is called the ISL, that somehow never reach a natural end, where you can do that. (btw a dema player won the last tourney, bust mostly because the Tundle better player, left the game bored on how slow the tournament was going)
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2014
  8. Captain

    Captain Well-Known Member

    There are appearently andriod emulators for windows, in bluestacks, so I might be able to get an andriod device functionally. It might be a few hours before I get everything operational though
  9. Captain

    Captain Well-Known Member

    and damn it this the end for now :(
    for some reason playdeks software is incompatible with bluestacks
  10. Waterd

    Waterd Well-Known Member

    :eek: sad times
  11. Captain

    Captain Well-Known Member

    now trying new emulator, will try again soon, likely you have gone to bed by now but if you haven't I'm going to finish downloading new emulator and see if SW app works,
  12. Waterd

    Waterd Well-Known Member

    I wanted to explain why SW has become my obsession.
    During my life I´ve been looking for a strategy game that fits all my strategic itches.

    1. Test yomi
    2. Test positional tactics
    3. Test resource valuation.
    4. There is always people available to play at competitive level.
    5. It´s time efficient
    6. It´s low variance
    7. It´s thematic
    8. It´s elegant
    9. Low execution

    Summoner wars it´s all.
    There has been some notorious contender to that position.
    The main one being Heroes of might and magic 3 at the ¨well designed maps¨.
    Which was one of my most played games because of that.
    The problem of heroes of might and magic 3 was in the end that a full turn (both players do play) last around 8 minutes. Considering that games last between 30 and 60 turns.
    We are talking from 240 minutes to 480 minutes. 4 to 8 hours for a game. Because of that finding opponents was hard. And it was terrible for me when 2 hours in the game you find your opponent is bad, and need 1 more hour to finish the deal.
    I still sucked it up because how good the game was and is imo.
    The real reason I stopped playing the game was that the competitive community drifted to play ¨Closed random maps¨ which imo are not ¨good games¨, Basically i was left with no competition. And reality is that in today gaming convince people to play games that last 6 hours average, very hard. I created a mod. Lost in time (i lost all in my disk and i had a copy on the now defunct megaupload) that reduced that to 3.5 hours average. Still hard to get people to play that amount i found.

    Age of mythology was another game that filled that spot quite well, however, the level of execution was too high, as to be a dealbreaker. And the competitive community dried quite fast.

    The last game is without a doubt, to me the current best strategy game out there. League of legends: Dominion.
    And I would be playing it like crazy if there was a competitive way to play frequently. But one tournament a week that last a few hours, doesn´t cut it to me, specially for the amount of work that it needs (getting to train with other 4 people).
    So I just can´t play that competitively.

    Now summoner wars hit all the marks, without missing almost any.
    The only problem summoner wars have is that it´s designer refuse to improve the game, and most of the vocal community is not very competitive. That´s a big deal, but the point is that it´s core system is really good. So I really hope someday a company will see it and make Summoner wars, with a designer that actually cares.

    In the meantime, despite that, is possible to improve the game with external tournament rules, and when you account that, right now i feel summoner wars is the best strategy game out there.

    Summoner wars hit all the spots on my list. And the very good thing is that since it´s ¨mostly¨ Asynch friendly, organizing tournament is really really easy, even for people with different times.

    So the reason I´m obsessed with Summoner wars, is that hit all the right spots for my perfect strategy game, with the only problem not being on the core mechanics but the attitude of the designer.


    So the good news is that Right now the rest of the summoners Block 1, are in Beta testing. Also more exciting is that an automated tournament system is in testing.
    Sadly the First block of summoners, has been the weakest in design, however I still think the game is good enough as is. On the lore of the game you can find references to 2nd block of summoners, so it may be they are closer than they look.

    So all in all I strongly suggest summoner wars to people, I think right now if you have the same ¨list¨ than I do or similar Summoner wars is one of the best strategy games to play, if not outright the best.

    Hopefully other people around here see it, join and we can talk about SW strategies and design.
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2014
  13. keithburgun

    keithburgun Administrator, Lead Designer Staff Member

    I strongly dislike Summoner Wars. I think it's a really really bad game. Better than MTG, Poker and Yomi, yes, but still a terrible game. I will respond to your individual points.

    1. Test yomi - Yomi is not a thing, you can't actually read the pattern of a person who's trying to have an unreadable pattern. You can get lucky, though, which is easily confused with "yomi". Maybe you can increase the times you get lucky to like 55% or something for a short time on a specific player.

    2. Test positional tactics - Fine, although not related to anything else on this list. Probably an actually good game would just be focused around doing one thing really well, not 5 unrelated things at once. But sure, valid.

    3. Test resource valuation. - valid

    4. There is always people available to play at competitive level. - valid

    5. It´s time efficient - valid

    6. It´s low variance - What?! Haha. You draw cards AND roll dice. I mean I guess compared to Yomi or Poker or Magic: The Gathering- the most random games humans have ever created that anyone would dare call "strategy games" and not "gambling machines", yeah. Compared to those, it's low variance. Compared to Outwitters, Through the Desert, Auro, or Chess, it's super-high variance. Astronomical variance.

    7. It´s thematic - ? by this, you mean it has a theme / isn't abstract? I guess that's true. It's weird to give points for this, so I would say this is invalid.

    8. It´s elegant - Aren't there like a 20 factions? And even customization? Again I guess if you're coming from MTG, sure. Super elegant compared to the least elegant thing humans have ever created.

    9. Low execution - valid.
    Nachtfischer likes this.
  14. Waterd

    Waterd Well-Known Member

    1. Ive been over it with several arguments that you basically didn´t answer. Again, a lot of people profit and have success based on the existence of yomi. Until you refutes the points i made in the yomi thread. I will just leave it at that.

    2. I know you are a purist. And that is valid, i call purist to those that want a game to test X and only X. I´m the opposite the more things that I CARE ABOUT That a game test at the same time, the better.

    6. It´s enough low variance to me.

    7. It enhances my experience so good enough for me.

    8. Yes, the absurd number of faction and deckbuilding are bad parts of the game, however it doesn´t dwarves everthing else.
  15. keithburgun

    keithburgun Administrator, Lead Designer Staff Member

  16. Erenan

    Erenan Well-Known Member

    WRT #1, Keith, would you at least agree that, hypothetically speaking, if Yomi is a skill that can be tested, SW would do that? If so, that might be enough for the purposes of this thread.
  17. keithburgun

    keithburgun Administrator, Lead Designer Staff Member

    If yomi was a thing... actually, hmm. I don't see how yomi would be a thing in SW, but maybe it's something that only appears at high levels of play. I assume if Waterd is saying it has yomi, then it has the mechanisms for yomi to exist, so I will defer to Waterd on that.

    Nice squid pic!
  18. Erenan

    Erenan Well-Known Member

    I would be interested in hearing Waterd's account of how much Yomi comes into play in SW.

    Not to derail the thread, but thanks! I felt like a change. :)
  19. Waterd

    Waterd Well-Known Member

    It could have more? yes, In fact on my avan rule and my SW remix I just do the change needed for that. Moving the draw phase AFTER the summoning phase.
    here is one of the flaws of summoner wars. Since you draw a card, BEFORE the summoning phase, you don´t even know what you are gonna hava available to summon next turn, you are a slave of the draw. Now, you can save cards for the next turn, at a cost (less mana available next turn). But since that is a lot of the time bad, you do not, so what you can play next turn is vastly determined by what you draw. however you frequently save one card, because it´s an important card (generally irreplaceable cards, like champions and powerfull events).

    Basically the faster the game is going, the less yomi it is, i wouldn´t have to be this way if the draw phase were after the event phase, but as it is, this is true.
    However, as the game slows down, you save more cards, since there is less need for fast mana. And suddenly it becomes important to assess the probability of each holding in your opponent hand.
    Is he building a Cue so if i summon a unit, he can use them? So should i play around cue? or maybe he is holding two fast units to take advantage of an opening on my summoner defense?
    The slower the game, the more players can build combination of cards in hand that aim for a specific tactic. And having to estimate the chances of each holding become part of the game.

    Just in my tournament game vs Mundungu one of the best players. I build a hand without events, because he was playing tacullu, who has a powerfull event that remove events. He has 3 of them. He went ahead and use it, found no event, and so wasted one mimic. So he had to wonder if i were the kind of player that would create a non event hand, just to waste mimic.
    And after that he has to wonder if i would keep doing that, or i would shift to more powerfull event hands, hoping that he will not mimic.

    That is a yomi situation.
  20. ratxt1

    ratxt1 Well-Known Member

    Has Waterd ever played pokemon? Doesn't test resource valuation and positional tactics unless you get really abstract with what those two mean. But has a more competitive community and is shorter than all those games you have mentioned.

    Also the skills tested, though not resource valuation and positional tactics, are super interesting.

    I just thought I would say it as I have considered it to be the best strategic game for quite sometime now (even though I am not currently actively playing), and seems like you have not really given it a try, and are potentially missing out on a reallly great game (that does not have summoner wars problems).
    Leartes and deluks917 like this.

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