Some First Impressions

Discussion in 'EMPIRE (by Crazy Monkey Studios)' started by mercviper, Oct 7, 2013.

  1. Bucky

    Bucky Well-Known Member

    Am I the only one in the room who burns redraws to set up a good Purge?
     
  2. Yojimbo252

    Yojimbo252 New Member

    Sorry I've just re-checked the card and I didn't realise the Warrior can be placed on any space on the back rank. For some reason I had it in my mind they retreat to the back rank of their current lane.

    I get where you're coming from now.

    I don't see how making a change that only allows Purge to be used on non-Strife cards is a good thing. If a player wants to Purge non-Strife for deck tuning purposes they can do so. I they choose to Purge Strife or a combination of the two they can do that too.

    Why would you want to force all players to only be able to do one thing (thus limiting choice) when there's no issue or imbalance to address?

    No you're certainly not alone there, especially during the late game period where you've got the battle in the bag and are just doing some last minute cycles to purge, resurrect or gain extra resources.

    I think it's fine as it is. It's a very valuable card and one that I copy at every opportunity. That suggests to me at least that it's not underpowered and is not in need of a buff. I think there's a number of other aspects that are in more serious need of change.
     
  3. Senator

    Senator Moderator

    It seems to me that what Bucky and Yojimbo are describing should be characterized as a generally weak card: It requires burning through redraws to be useful (and frankly I often fail to get anything useful to purge even if I do have redraws to burn), and/or you need to make a bunch of copies of it to get enough of them in your deck to match up with other cards. (The copy strategy won't be possible in the next version, since there will be at most 1 Copy card in the game. )

    Maybe we want Purge to be weak. But for a card that costs 2 command, I want to actually be able to use it effectively if I choose to take it. Redraw is useful only when drawn with the right combination of other cards, and also only when I'm at a point in the combat cycle where I can afford to spend both command points and redraws to do something unrelated to the combat at hand.
     
  4. vivafringe

    vivafringe Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I don't know how things will shake up with all the changes, but Purge was my #1 pick once I got to the endgame. That, of course, relied on me abusing a number of things (redraw, stalling the game out, and a deck I wanted to keep mostly stable).
     
  5. Bucky

    Bucky Well-Known Member

    Purge is pretty good without using redraws on it, but about twice as good (i.e. awesome) with redraws. Purging multiple Strife is like erasing two unit deaths or a lost battle from history.
     
  6. Yojimbo252

    Yojimbo252 New Member

    I think you're in the minority if you feel Purge is a weak card. If Purge was weak I wouldn't even bother choosing it let alone copy it.

    The reason why people redraw through their deck as part of a Purge turn is to maximise its use, not to make it useful. Even removing just 1 bad card is advantageous but I generally don't Purge until I've got at least 2 bad cards in front of me which isn't that hard to do at some point during the battle. I mean, when you've eliminated all but one of the enemy units and it's down to 1 health with 2 to 4 turns worth of base HP left, you've pretty much got the game in the bag. What else are you going to be doing for those few turns before you close the battle out?
     
  7. Senator

    Senator Moderator

    Drawing the battle out to perform unrelated operations is certainly something I've done, but it feels pretty lame. I'd want to design that out of the game myself.

    You misunderstand me if you think I'm arguing that it's bad or unnecessary to purge Strife. But Purge is a card that costs a lot and does nothing at all until, through random chance or spending combat resources (redraws) you get enough bad cards in your hand that you can make good use of it. (The card is trashed when you use it, so you're a fool if you use it to purge any less than 2 cards.) While it's probably not that hard to set up a good Purge when you have loads of Strife in your hand--though everyone says that they generally burn redraws to do so--what about the large portions of the game where you don't have Strife? (In my current game, I'm at turn 50+, have fought 7 battles, and have 1 Strife.)

    Basically, what I am saying is that Purge, by its nature, will usually require you to carry it around for some time before you can profitably use it--during which time it is as useless as Strife in your hand. It will also, by its nature, often or usually require you to burn Redraws to use it. It also disappears after being used, so it displaces a combat or spell card from your deck. And on top of all that, it costs 2 Command points (which further limits its usability in combat, because you need to be in a situation where you have both command and redraw to spare, that you don't need for the fighting). My point is that that all this means that selecting the card entails a large cost, and maybe it would make sense to lower that a bit. I think the card could cost zero command and it would be fine.

    It sounds like other people have better luck than I do with both Purge and Copy. (For literally all 7 of the battles in my current game, every time Copy has appeared, it has been alongside Valor, Grit, and Warrior Reposition. I like Warrior Reposition, but I don't want to spend Copy on it.)
     
    Nachtfischer likes this.
  8. Yojimbo252

    Yojimbo252 New Member

    Agreed. That's why I suggested trying in Strife with overall battle outcome. If someone wants to draw the battle out they can, but if that means you run the risk of your base taking damage you could end up getting more Strife than you bargained for which may negate any benefit in drawing the battle out.

    No misunderstanding, we both agree on that above point. Where we seem to disagree is that you think Purge is not a particularly good card and needs some sort of change to make it cheaper/better.

    I think it's perfectly fine as is.

    I use redraws to cycle through my deck (at an opportune moment) until I get a card that I want to Copy.
     
  9. Senator

    Senator Moderator

    I am not saying that Purge is a weak card. I am saying that compared to other 2-command cards, it is far more difficult to make use of, and therefore carries hidden costs. (Another cost I didn't mention: Emperors with limited redraws will be handicapped in effective use of Purge.) In other words, compared to those other 2-command spell cards that can be used literally at any time (Meteor, Zap, Bless, Bounty, etc.) and are guaranteed to have an effect, it is relatively weak. Frankly, I consider this assertion to be pretty non-controversial.

    Clarification: My comment was in response to your saying "I mean, when you've eliminated all but one of the enemy units and it's down to 1 health with 2 to 4 turns worth of base HP left, you've pretty much got the game in the bag. What else are you going to be doing for those few turns before you close the battle out?", as well as vivafringe's reference to needing to "stall the game out" in order to make effective use of Purge.

    Again, my experience is different from yours. I find it very hard to even use Purge to trash Strife, much less have the chance to use it to streamline my deck a bit--at least if I'm trying to maximize my performance in battle. But I think I've clarified myself as much as I can, so you won't hear any more from me about this relatively minor Purge issue.
     
  10. Yojimbo252

    Yojimbo252 New Member

    The way I read your previous posts you seem to suggest Purge needs to be made cheaper because it is a relatively weak card. It is that point that I disagree with. Yes it takes more work than those cards that can be used at any time but its benefits are far greater. Permanently removing 2-3 bad cards from a players' deck is far more beneficial than the one off effects of those any time cards you mention.
     

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