Discussion in 'Politics, Etc.' started by Lemon, Oct 17, 2014.

  1. Waterd

    Waterd Well-Known Member

    Sure, but this is as far as i know not the most common thing, and more important for this thread and my point, in the twitter situation, there is no reason to think this is the case. There is no indication on the twitter story that this is a case of sexism, AT ALL.
    Which is my point, what the twitter story has to do with sexism? as far as I know nothing, which si the crux of the point. I don't say it's not a problem to solve, just "sexism" is not the place for this problem to be.

    Someone that acts like the guy did in that story,even if the guy truly is dangerously sexist and even if sexism could magically be erased of his mindset, it's the least of the problems, from the pov of the agressor. This is a seems like guy that has no respect for person, has clearly terrible no social skills and has sociopathic tendencies.
    So you think the guy is probably the most affable, centered rational guy, that just happens to lose his shit when related with women because he is sexist, but when he is relating with men, there is no problem in his attitude or his actions at all?
    We both know we do not believe that to be the most likely scenario, we know there are men that are agressive against men too, and generally aggressive men tend to be aggressive with both men and women, the cases of person that are law abiding citizing, affable and respectful towards men but suddenly lose their shit with women, are rare.
    And I have no reason to think is the case of this man.
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  2. Juli

    Juli Well-Known Member

    @Batlad I think Waterd regards as bigotry only deliberate malice. Discussing ingrained sexism with him is probably pointless.
    keithburgun likes this.
  3. Lemon

    Lemon Well-Known Member

    Feminists regard bigotry as only ever affecting women. Discussing equality with them is probably pointless.
    -Y- likes this.
  4. Waterd

    Waterd Well-Known Member

    We never talked about bigotry so i don't know what the hell you are talking about. Can you explain? because it really dazzles me what bigotry has to do with the whole conversation.
    Juli likes this.
  5. Batlad

    Batlad Well-Known Member

    Well I'm a feminist and I take a broader view than that, so I guess you're wrong. And that's not even considering non-sexist bigotry.
  6. Batlad

    Batlad Well-Known Member

    Okay well lets shift this discussion around a a bit, so we can try to make some progress.

    What would you consider sufficient evidence to show that:
    A) Someone is sexist.
    B) That their behaviour is the result of their sexism.
    C) And, what pattern of behaviour would constitute sexism, despite the defendant's claims to the contrary.

    Feel free to use the previous example to illustrate your argument.
  7. Waterd

    Waterd Well-Known Member

    A person explaining his motivations, and his motivations having a sexist basis. (I punched her because she is a women, i wouldn't punch a man in that situation, no matter what)(I hired him because he is a man, I wouldn't hire women)

    If a person, under similar circumstances, would act different only based on the gender of people involved, and you can show that, it would prove the sexism.
    The story of people at work impersonating each other, and people reacting different based on the gender that sign up, is a good example of clear evidence.
    The study where people assign wages to people, and all things being equal, different wages are applied to different genders, is also a great example.
    The video/social experiment where people act different towards harassers, depending on the genders involved, is also decent evidence.

    So we need to see the persons involved to consistently act different, in similar situations ,when the value of genders involved is changed.
  8. Bucky

    Bucky Well-Known Member

    - Comment on an Atlantic article criticizing Pence for his policy of avoiding private meetings with women, via Instapundit.
  9. Erenan

    Erenan Well-Known Member

    This whole Mike Pence thing is really just a distraction from important stuff. The sooner we move on to something else the better IMO.
  10. Batlad

    Batlad Well-Known Member

    It's okay to find entertainment in things that are actually very weird and funny.

    That's an impressive amount of misrepresentation for just four lines. For example, asking accusations to be treated seriously is not the same as asking them to be universally career ending. However in the most egregious cases, that would probably be both appropriate and in the companies best interest. And the claim that women should be believed is an overstatement, what we want is reasonable consideration in the public sphere (instead of assumed lying or presuming the fault is with the victim), and belief in the private sphere is just a part of being a good friend.
  11. keithburgun

    keithburgun Administrator, Lead Designer Staff Member

    On bigotry:

    There are some classes of people that are sort of higher and lower on the social ladder in terms of status. Men are higher than women, whites are higher than blacks, straight people are higher than gays, and so on. In general, the further you get from a straight white male identity, the more you're treated as "other" in society. This can have really subtle effects like super slight differences in how people treat you, up to massive differences like whether you get hired for a job or something.

    For bigotry, sexism, racism, and other kinds of biases/prejudices, there's a personal type and a systemic type.

    Some have said that you "can't be racist against a white person". This, while technically true, is really mostly false in practice. Because what we should care about with racism is how much damage it actually is causing. When white people "suffer racism", it's pretty rare and pretty minor, at least in our society; same goes for men. And even in the cases where it does happen, these individuals are already members of some of the highest-privileged class overall. So to be concerned more for their welfare in the face of these biases than you are for those of women or blacks --- or even to have equal concern --- is really just blind to the reality of the situation.

    Edit: removed an unnecessary section
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2017
  12. Bucky

    Bucky Well-Known Member

    What does that have to do with political correctness (e.g. prejudice against people who have traits that correlate weakly with racism)?
  13. SwiftSpear

    SwiftSpear Active Member

    Anti-PC almost universally understand this already. These aren't rocket science concepts. The dispute is not even the existence of these phenomena, it's a dispute of importance of these phenomena vs other predictive factors. The difference between the outcomes between men and women, or between white people and black people, is so small in comparison to the difference between "upper class" and "lower class" by birth or, urbanites and ruralites, or New Jerseyites vs Mississipians that it's weird to look at race as the dominant factor. Likewise it's not that sexism doesn't exist, but the wage gap is far stronger predicted by life-choice and career-choice factors than it is by sexism keeping women down.

    The arguments isn't that racism and sexism doesn't exist, it's that fixing racism and sexism will cost a LOT more and will do less to fix the problems than fixing other more dominant factors.

    The other argument is that telling people not to say racist and sexist things, and shaming them for honestly expressing their ideas is not the same as making people not racist or sexist, and in fact, probably makes racism and sexism more attractive.
  14. Bucky

    Bucky Well-Known Member

    I would go further and claim that efforts to fix problems caused by racism and sexism often cause more problems than the racism or sexism itself, and often do not meet their main goals of equal outcome.

    A secondary problem is that the above statement can't be publicly discussed without being shouted down as racist and sexist.

    (E) For example, some businesses are reluctant to hire women because it would make them more vulnerable to (frivolous) sex discrimination cases.
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2017
  15. ALavaVatChild

    ALavaVatChild Well-Known Member

    Class, race, sex, geography, 'choice' etc. are not independent factors, this argument is absurd. It's not some incidental accident of nature that Mississipi is demographically 3 times as black as New Jersey.

    Go on..

    Nobody seriously expects 'equal outcome' to be met most of the time. The rest of your statement has no factual basis.

    Obviously bullshit, evidenced not least by people who make their career out of doing this.

    Businesses make bad decisions because of irrational fears all the time.
  16. Bucky

    Bucky Well-Known Member

    What fraction of female employees laid off would need to file frivolous discrimination lawsuits to make that fear rational?
  17. keithburgun

    keithburgun Administrator, Lead Designer Staff Member

    Really? Are you in a position to make that claim?
  18. Bucky

    Bucky Well-Known Member

    Now that you mention it, not without being disingenuous.

    I could point to the $21 billion in paperwork costs for EEOC gender regulations, or the $7.5 billion that companies spend on legal fees dealing with EEOC sex-discrimination complaints. And I could point to the fact that the raw wage gap has remained roughly constant since about 2001 despite escalating compliance requirements, or to studies that say most of the wage gap is due to different career choices by gender. I can also point to supporting examples like the perverse incentive to not hire anyone for a temporary position that is likely to allege discrimination when the position goes away.

    But then I'd be making the same mistake as the people saying we need to fix the wage gap purely on the basis of the average male salary being higher than the average female salary. I'd be looking at first, second and third order effects when real economics is all about the hundredth order effects.

    So while I'm pretty sure that equal pay enforcement is costing most employers (and, indirectly, workers) a larger amount per employee than the wage gap for those employers, I can't totally prove it.
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2017
    Waterd and deluks917 like this.
  19. SwiftSpear

    SwiftSpear Active Member

    I want to point out that this is not an argument that sexism doesn't exist, nor that sexism is never harmful, nor that institutional sexism is unheard of. All those things can still be true while the evidence points to other factors being better predictors of the wage gap.
  20. ALavaVatChild

    ALavaVatChild Well-Known Member

    What fraction of female employees would need to be secret alien invaders for that fear to be rational?

    This is a nonsense question in the absence of any support for your original claim, it's validity and usual impact on a business.

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