Discussion in 'Politics, Etc. (Archived)' started by Lemon, Oct 17, 2014.

  1. Lemon

    Lemon Well-Known Member

    Mod: (These posts moved from their original location on the Ridiculous Videogame Screenshots thread.)

    'Putting large boobs in a game -> they must hate women?'

    I'm not following your inference here.
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2014
  2. keithburgun

    keithburgun Administrator, Lead Designer Staff Member

    I assume "putting large boobs in a game" != "boob monster". You can do "large boobs" tastefully.
  3. major_shiznick

    major_shiznick Well-Known Member

    Ocarina of Time already had a boob monster in the Great Fairy. Ok, not the same thing, but I find the Great Fairy in OoT way more offensive to look at.
  4. Lemon

    Lemon Well-Known Member

    So at Tecmo Koei they hate women because the character is 'not tasteful'? Because women never voluntarily dress like that, right?

    I guess they're all misogynists too?
    deluks917 likes this.
  5. HairMachine

    HairMachine Member

    Hmm. A person choosing to dress a certain way is not the same as predominantly male developers deciding to dress up their imaginary play-dolls for reasons of sexual gratification, right? Let's not strawman each other to death.

    That said, I'm not sure about 'misogyny' either - I do think the boob monster is ridiculous and tasteless and symptomatic of the artistic vacuousness of most of the industry, but there is probably not enough evidence to say whether it's done out of malice or honest idiocy.
    drbobjack and Kdansky like this.
  6. Lemon

    Lemon Well-Known Member

    Youre projecting some rather sinister motivations onto these developers, without any basis other than 'the game contains *a* female character who I feel is dressed distastefully'. There are many other characters that are not dressed like this, and also by saying this not an acceptable way for a female to be dressed brings you dangerously close to 'slut shaming' the women who do enjoy dressing that way e.g. at anime expos.

    And even if that really was their motivation, it's still not misogyny. Misogyny is hating women.

    Also, lets remember this is a game about big swords and explosions and killing thousands of monsters. Im not sure 'tastefulness' means much in this context.
    Waterd likes this.
  7. keithburgun

    keithburgun Administrator, Lead Designer Staff Member

    I think if you equate misogyny with "hating women", then you have an unsophisticated view of the actual problem, and that lack of nuance would make it difficult to have a productive conversation about it.

    We usually don't (can't?) draw such a distinction when it comes to other -isms. Like if someone is doing something clearly racist, we don't particularly care whether they're doing so out of malice or idiocy. Most of the time, it's kind of a blurry line, anyway.

    Either way though, maybe you should start a thread for such a discussion. As it is, your above post serves as a great entry into the Ridiculous Modern Videogame screenshots thread. :D Once you do I'll move these posts.
    Kdansky likes this.
  8. Kdansky

    Kdansky Well-Known Member

    When they made Dead or Alive a decade ago, I was convinced they put naked ladies with giant boobs (who fight in underwear and heels with breast jiggle physics) to sell some copies.
    When they fucked up Metroid Other M, I was hoping they wrote the disgusting sexist lines out of ignorance.
    Now we're at the third round, and this time they completely overdo tits & ass in one of the least sexy franchises that exists. I don't think it's just ignorance, they know exactly what they are doing. I think it's tasteless objectification, and that falls fully under misogyny.
  9. keithburgun

    keithburgun Administrator, Lead Designer Staff Member

    Ya, even if it's "misogyny because that's what our customers want", it's still misogyny.
  10. Lemon

    Lemon Well-Known Member

    Dead or Alive was clearly selling boobs, but Nintendo didn't make that.
    Other M was poorly written and acted, and it's a big departure from the previous games, but I don't see any sexism there. I saw a strong theme of following authority, but I don't see where you're getting sexism from. Especially when you consider it was written in japan where they have very different attitudes about authority and gender roles.
    As for Hyrule Warriors 'completely overdoing tits & ass', here are all of the playable female characters in the game.

    All of them are fully clothed, except for that one girl showing midriff and Ruto, who is a fish.
    You've literally taken a single character with a revealing top and large breasts, and painted the development team as misogynists.

    Moreover, why is it sexist to have female characters with revealing clothing? Because some 15y.o. guy might get aroused by it? I really don't understand. Many (most?) women like to be seen as sexually attractive and spend huge amounts of energy on it. And many women do want to play as sexy women in videogames. Many men also like to play as sexy women too, because they like sexy women. And the same is true the other way around. Assassins creed has a huge female following partly due to their sexy male main characters.

    Also, there's plenty to criticise about Hyrule Warriors without inventing some sexism too.
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2014
  11. keithburgun

    keithburgun Administrator, Lead Designer Staff Member

    Lemon, if we assume that we live in a world that isn't sexist and misogynist to begin with, then of course having females in revealing clothing is fine. And even living in the world that we do live in, occassionaly having a revealing-clothing-woman is also fine.

    The problem is that we live in a misogynist world, and this kind of attire is basically the default in videogames. It sounds like you might be totally uninformed on this topic. The fact is that it's generally kind of a turn off for women to have to play games where all of the women in the games are clearly sex objects. It's like this big flag that says "THIS GAME ISN'T FOR YOU!" at best and a statement to the potential female player that "I don't really even consider you a real person" at worst.

    I'd say start with Anita's videos - maybe the Damsel in Distress: Tropes vs. Women in Videogames series.
    valavir, HairMachine and Nachtfischer like this.
  12. deluks917

    deluks917 Well-Known Member

    Does anyone have stats on this stuff. I would be interested in seeing how sexual objectification correlates with sex breakdown of the playerbase within a genre. I really do think it needs to be kept within genre to show causality.
  13. Waterd

    Waterd Well-Known Member

    Keith you seem to make arguments that are irrelevant.
    If this world is misogynist or not is irrelevant (the answer really depends on what parts of the world you talk about, and what part of the society you talk about)

    Designers have the total right to make their games aimed only at male people, as they can make games totally designed for female. So the fact that people are turned off by X, is irrelevant.
    It´s ok to have flags that say ¨this isn´t for you¨ . That is far from ¨I do not consider you a real person¨ that is stretching things.

    Having said that, many women want to play as sexy women as do men. I know that many women dislike that portrayal of women in games, generally though in my experience, those women have generally lower self esteem than the average women.
  14. major_shiznick

    major_shiznick Well-Known Member

    I think most of Lemon's post above is more or less fine, but I feel super obligated to call this line out as DANGEROUS BULLSHIT. I'll spoiler-tag this rant, because I'm not sure it's that germane to this thread.
    I'm sorry if anyone actually read that. Again, almost none of that is actually relevant to what Lemon described, but this shit is major hot-button stuff for me, and I felt compelled to just vomit some words and emotions.
    keithburgun likes this.
  15. keithburgun

    keithburgun Administrator, Lead Designer Staff Member

    Well, I just disagree. Further, I feel confident enough to say that I'm right, and you're wrong. Cultural context matters. Racial slurs are a great illustration of this point - if it weren't for the history that people of African descent have had in the United States, do you think the racial slurs attributed to those people would have remotely the same meaning and power that they have now? I mean maybe you go around saying whatever racial slurs you want, whenever while you're out in public.

    ???? Weird, weird statement. Even if that were true how is that at all relevant!?
  16. Waterd

    Waterd Well-Known Member

    A racial slur is by defintion, an insult. A semi naked woman, is not.

    It´s relevant because it means that the claim that annoys women, is not generally true, if my claim is true.
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2014
    Lemon and deluks917 like this.
  17. deluks917

    deluks917 Well-Known Member

    I agree lots of women I know actively enjoy playing semi-naked female characters. Though in may experience they prefer the characters to not have completely over the top impossible anatomy. But just being hot and mostly naked seems fine, and the anatomy can get away with being a little unrealistic (just not insanely so).

    This seems to hold in other media also. For example my Sister's favorite Gurren Lagann char is Yoko Littner. And Yoko's outfits are pretty spicey. Yoko imo is a good example of about how far you can push the anatomy before a char looks silly.

    Also just mentioning. The stuff shiz described in spoilers is a totally different universe from (mostly) naked girls. The things described are clearly bad in of themselves. While there is nothing intriniscally wrong with eye candy in media.
  18. Waterd

    Waterd Well-Known Member

    Do you know the sexual orientation of your sister? How old is she?
  19. deluks917

    deluks917 Well-Known Member

    Very Straight. 23. For interest my sister doesn't exactly dress like Yoko Littner but she does often enjoy wearing revealing clothing.

    (she has nothing against LBGTA stuff. She just claims to have zero sexual attraction to other women. And claims to have never had any such feelings.)
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2014
  20. Waterd

    Waterd Well-Known Member

    Maybe on this note, after watching damsel in distrees you tube video linked. Because you mention, I started a super marathon of Fairy tail. I kind of like it, certainly will make my top 25 or 30 best anime list in my excel sheet.
    I don´t mind the huge amount of fanservice in the series. However I find at this point annoying how on every arc, at some point Titania seems to be poisened, petrified, exhausted or whatever you wish, so the main hero, a teenage impulsive guy has to be the ultimate savior of the whole series. Despite being extremly clear that actually titania is way more powerfull to him. But is just annoying, how they go out of their way to always find a way to disable Titania, so Natsu can go and save her.
    However is worth to notice that they actually do kind of the same with makarov. So it could be argued that it´s actually a non biased action in the series to keep the overpowered characters disabled so the main protagonist, can be, the main protagonist.
    While I find it equally annoying, at least it can be claimed that is not just a ¨damsel in distress¨ forced scenario. But somehow it feels the titania case is more recurrent and more forced. Since while makarov is disabled, is not about ¨now we have to save makarov¨ is more like ¨now that makarov can´t protect us, we have to defend ourselves¨. When titania is disabled is a ¨Oh, now we have to save titania¨. It seems to make matters worse that everytime she is disabled she happens to be on bikini armor, semi naked or just regular bikini.

    And the part is that, just for the sake of having this trope, the series is worse, i don´t care about natsu, In fact the series could be way higher up if it werent because, the series has plot armor as thick as plot armor can get and the main character with super thick plot armor happens to be natsu.
    I want to see titania fighting as much or more than natsu, and would happily be in the situation where natsu becomes irrelevant since he is near titania. And yet we have to , by force, see natsu steal the show and titania become the damsel in distress.
    It certainly lowers the quality of the show to me

    EDIT: To make matters worse, I don´t remember even once situation where Titania ¨saves¨ Natsu, despite her being completly superior in combat. THAT BAD IT IS. (maybe im wrong and EVENTUALLY does happen?)
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2014

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