1. deref

    deref New Member

    captain do you have an elo or have you not soloq'd enough in the new system to get one?
     
  2. Captain

    Captain Well-Known Member

    I USED to have an elo of 1700 before the new system came to be

    Since then my roomate trolled me tanking my elo to 1550 then the new system came to pass, and Disconnects (over 30% of my games are disconnects) have kept me from advancing from master IX to master X

    I estimate I can get to ~1800-1900 elo if I really put in the effort
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2014
  3. Elyot

    Elyot Well-Known Member

    The system has maybe deflated a bit since the change. Might be a bit harder to hit 1900 but I'd guess you'd hit 1800 if you could stop DCing! 1900 might need more work.
     
  4. Captain

    Captain Well-Known Member

    OMG you're awake at 4AM on christmas morning... anyway according to alexfrog my play ranges from bad IX to top Elo depending on the day. But yea I do beat alexfrog in practice matches over 50% of the time...
    1900 was the High end of my range, A more realistic range is 1750 - 1850 but 1900 is my Goal. I know it is reachable and within my potential even though it isn't going to be easy, and will mean I will have less time for university studies.


    Anyway onto things that aren't actually coherent thoughts but more things that need to be written down
    1. I feel that once the game gets past turn 4 I often stop making any real significant decisions and I am just repeating a series of calculations as to when to stop building long term sword producing units and to start producing engineers, rhinos, doomed units, and other Defensive things. Thinking the 2 turns ahead that you easily can. I think that this is one of my strengths (sometimes sometimes I just brain fart) having played the base set only playtest matches, I have developed strong heuristics For this. But this isn't really "strategy" more "annoying bean counting"
    2. Prismata is very much not a "fun" game to play. While I do play it when I don't feel well (a good part of why I still am in IX instead of X) this is actually suboptimal in many ways. Studying games is probably better but getting replays of yourself and sitting down and calculating what would happen if X is very tedious.
    3. Here is a comment made by reddit user Evil_kitty "Being able to find out what you opponent can do and reacting by buying optimal defense is a big part of the game." While reacting to their potential is important, FINDING THAT OUT is silly, it's just useless bean counting combat math that everyone should be doing instantly if you aren't wtf are you spending your thinking time on.
    4. I know I won well before I actually get my opponent to concede it's typically a matter of Looking at the amount of damage being dealt, and calculating the total defense capacity they have available and then determining who's going to run out of walls first, then convincing the other guy that they are going to die because 6 turns from now they will run out of walls.
    5. one big frontier to overcome is the running out of walls problem, my solution to this issue is I reccomend building Rhino's/engineers as non prompt defense and calculating 2 turns ahead (engineers) -3 turns in ahead (rhinos) to determine when to buy these non prompt defenders. This frontier is something hard to achieve and hard to break into. I fear this may in fact just make games take even longer and not actually create strategically interesting games. This fear stems from the fact that in point #4 that I have to wait a long time before my opponent's who are dead will realize they are dead (they won't concede until they ACTUALLY run out of walls rather than theoretically knowing that they running out of walls before I do.)
    6. Drones are breech vulnerable
    This sounds like a silly statement to make, after all drones cost only 3 gold and an energy (often a free good) for 1 health so how can they be breech vulnerable? You see losing a drone often means much more than simply losing 1 gold/turn. You also lose the production capacity that the drone was supporting, say the ability to use one of the Red in the animus that means you didn't lose 3 drones, you lost 3 drones and 1/2 of an animus.
    7. The terms "rush" and "all in" are dumb in prismata
    The much preffered terms to me anyway are Sword economy, Drone econmy absorb economy

    Drone economy is the economy of drones producing more stuff, it is the factors of production in this game

    Sword economy is an economic tax on the opponents economy equal to the value of your offense - their absorb economy

    Absorb economy is the ability to negate some parts of taking damage by having a large value defender

    8. The time controls are both A: brutal and B: the wrong type
    A better time control system would have you have lots of time Bank, but a very small time/turn, that way you can make your early (and VERY HARD) decisions correctly while the easy midgame decisions can take the small amount they take, while the transition decision into lategame units (rhinos, engineers, forcefields, Grimbotch's and other stamina/doomed units) is the other hard decision.
    9 : Players don't bean count well enough IMO, I've noticed it a lot when you stream, you go Uhh umm... should I or should I go for rhinos ect.
    The real answer is you should go to analyzer and run through a 1-2 turn simulation of what they will do. It isn't nearly as hard as I thought, and provides useful information.
     
    Waterd and keithburgun like this.
  5. keithburgun

    keithburgun Administrator, Lead Designer Staff Member

    My feelings after just hearing the rules of Prismata were that #1 would be an issue. Unless there's a ton of new content streaming in all the time, which I hear is going to be the case, but that just swaps in one problem for another.

    I think #2 is due to the lack of hidden information. There isn't enough middle ground between solutions and guesses. I haven't gotten anywhere near the point with the bean-counting that you have, Captain, but I am sort of not-compelled by the idea that getting good is basically a matter of sitting down and doing the bean counting.
     
  6. Captain

    Captain Well-Known Member

    To be fair, there is lots of gameplay in the Combat math part of the game, but it is tedious gameplay (to me).
    I do think that my skill would massively increase if I actually bothered to do what deblange does and actually master the bean counting to the degree required, I'm just lazy.
     
  7. Captain

    Captain Well-Known Member

    Hmm there might be a solution to the bean counting problem
    Play blitz and Rapid prismata
    can't even load analyzer before your turn ends
    You have to calcualte usign complicated heuristics

    Sadly this game is much more high variance than regular, because you can't look ahead. However it is still an interesting game, @keithburgun it reduces the look ahead to functionally 2 turns because you can't see beyond that due to time contraints
     
  8. ratxt1

    ratxt1 Well-Known Member

    could you ink this analyzer you are always talking about?
     
  9. Nachtfischer

    Nachtfischer Well-Known Member

    Well, less time doesn't really hide information, though. It just means you have to perform calculations ("bean counting") fast.
     
  10. Bucky

    Bucky Well-Known Member

    ratxt1, you can get at the analyzer by hitting the 'analyze' button in the lower right corner.
     
  11. ratxt1

    ratxt1 Well-Known Member

    Is there a way to edit what units will be played when practicing against a bot (not in the demo but the actual game).
     
  12. Captain

    Captain Well-Known Member

    sadly no custom sets but what you CAN do is find sets of games you played and enter the replay code (unless that doesn't work against bot)
     
  13. ratxt1

    ratxt1 Well-Known Member

    I just want to get X set into analyzer don't really care about the bot part. So replay does work great for my purposes (though need to accumlate some replays).
     
  14. Captain

    Captain Well-Known Member

    As a sidenote don't read the subreddit, most of the info there is garbage :(
     
  15. Captain

    Captain Well-Known Member

    Even blitz is losing its appeal to me now :( my lookahead in that is 2 turns but it isn't fun to play. You look at the pool, decide what the best unit is, build it using your brains optimal path to get there, and master the rhino transition.

    Primata is a bad game at being fun to play
    I'll write a review as to why I think that is later
     
    Nachtfischer likes this.
  16. keithburgun

    keithburgun Administrator, Lead Designer Staff Member

  17. Waterd

    Waterd Well-Known Member

    I don´t know where we should discuss the article, but I fail to see how hidding information changes anything. You still if have more time can search deeper in the possiblity tree. It really changes nothing, I have to say. The only thing hidden information adds, is yomi, which you dislike and randomness, which you dislike.

    This is true for games with hidden information!

    And this is true for games with hidden information!

    Same in the game with hidden information!

    I really love hidden information in my games, because of yomi and randomness, otherwise, i wouldn´t care really.
     
  18. keithburgun

    keithburgun Administrator, Lead Designer Staff Member

    Yeah, but it's kinda not true - or less true - for a deep game.
     
  19. Lemon

    Lemon Well-Known Member

    It seems a distinction needs to be made between hidden information and currently irrelevant information, like the rest of the board in auro.
     
  20. keithburgun

    keithburgun Administrator, Lead Designer Staff Member

    I would say that the board coming *at you* isn't irrelevant. If you know that when you move 1 tile to the right you'll awaken a lich, that's a big deal. With full map information, you basically have to plan all your moves around the whole map. Like you should just sit there and plot your whole course. "Ill use this on him, then travel down this way, get those power tiles, get that candy, use Blast on the lich and the curse kid, etc.
     

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