EMPIRE Version 1.3 is in development NOW!

Discussion in 'EMPIRE (by Crazy Monkey Studios)' started by keithburgun, Apr 14, 2014.

  1. keithburgun

    keithburgun Administrator, Lead Designer Staff Member

    EMPIRE Version 1.3 is in development right now. Please take a look at this Google Drive document which contains the complete changelist. If you have any thoughts on any of it please feel free to let me know now.

    In about 8-10 days we'll have a short testing period. If you want to help test it out, please make sure you're signed up (our old testers should still be good). Note that being signed up for the Auro beta won't give you access to Empire (or vice versa!).

    PS. Check out this thread for some of the rationale behind some of the changes (its changelist is not 100% the same as this list, it's close though).

    EDIT: Link added.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2014
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  2. alastair

    alastair Well-Known Member

    Did you meaneth this thread for the rationale or did you forgeteth to link to one?
     
  3. crossbow

    crossbow New Member

    If my opinion matters just a little, i must say that, after reading the changelog, i'm (a little) disappointed : This game's greatest strong point lies in its desperate ambiance & mystery . So now, when you reach 80 pts : Hurray ! you win ! now try to reach 105 pts !!! for me, it's a victory for mathematicians, not for dreamers ... Where came the desolation from ? how to stop it ? from a huge plant, a seed that we can try to find and slay before it covers the entire world ? no, it's simpler : reach 80 pts and you have cleansed the world ... I think i prefer no victory at all than this "cheap" victory . Pardon my frankness, i say that 'cause i really love this game . :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2014
  4. alastair

    alastair Well-Known Member

    Ya, I agree that it doesn't really seem to fit thematically as there doesn't really seem to be any conclusion feeling to it. "You arbitrarily won" but the world is still in ruin! From a design/balance perspective it seems like it could be great, but I don't remember much about the game.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2014
  5. crossbow

    crossbow New Member

    another comments about the changelog (i recognize there are good ideas, those i talk about are the ones i don't like too much ...) :

    1) The game is too slow ? but it's part of his melancholic nature ! Heck, the day i'll want to play faster, i'll buy a space shooter !

    2) no more materials in a forest ? so what is the wood for ? and no more mines ? instead, we'll have 'mountain towns', plain towns', all with 3 materials ! Damn ! :-(

    3) a smaller map, no more cards differences between emperors, no more custom town names (you know, for the slow-paced dreamers like me ..) ... are you sure this is not the 0.9 version ?

    Again, pardon my frankness, i recognize the hard work you have all done, but i think this will be the first game i bought that i won't upgrade ...
     
  6. keithburgun

    keithburgun Administrator, Lead Designer Staff Member

    Ooops, @alastair it's here: http://www.dinofarmgames.com/forum/index.php?threads/empire-1-3-changes-previously-was-1-2.612/

    For the next version (1.4) - if we get to make one, I will actually drop the score entirely and make it a "kill some huge final boss monster" thing. That's the reason we're keeping the metagame light for now. And the only reason I'm not doing that now is that the OTHER changes are even higher priority.

    1). The game won't be "faster", it just has the option of being able to be played fast if you want. If you want to take 300 hours between each turn, you still have that option.

    2). Can you elaborate on your problem? You listed what is there and then just said "Damn".

    3). Sometimes less is more. If you want to argue with me about why one of these rules is bad, I welcome that! But you'll need to actually mount arguments. You can't just "state the rule" and then add "that's bad". You have to convince me that you're right.


    Empire is a game that had an exceedingly short development cycle for its release. As such, the version that came out on release day was, while definitely playable and enjoyable, still not even close to meeting its potential.

    Auro is a game that has had a muchhh longer development - nearly 3 years now, which is actually not that unreasonable for a highly original, deep strategy game. I remember at various points in development, we'd have a tester here or there get REALLY HOOKED on the one version of Auro or another. Looking back, none of those versions were even close to what we have today, but if I had listened to those testers back then, we would have just stopped, and had this mediocre ass game that a small amount of people like.

    I've heard this problem get called the "problem of local maxima", and it is a classic problem that game designers have to struggle with when dealing with playtesters.

    [​IMG]

    Sometimes on the journey to getting better, a game has to enter phases that seem "worse" (although I don't think 1.3 is going to be worse, I think it's going to be straight up way better).

    Looking forward to hearing your arguments for your positions, @crossbow . There will be some time to make tweaks, so if you actually convince me (again, with arguments) then there will be changes in a direction that you prefer. Challenge a specific rule and let's debate it.
     
  7. crossbow

    crossbow New Member

    Thanks for answering ! i'll try to respond point by point .

    Your first sentence (about v1.4) seems encouraging, but the part that i noticed the most was "If we get to make one" ... Also, i'm certainly too Old-school, but for me the first priority was about the scenaristic part, a possible ending & explanation, well before some mechanical changes ... after all, the game works well enough actually, and if you'll never do a next version, what in your opinion will ever miss the most to this game ? some battle adjustements or a real conclusion to the story ?

    1) Ah ah ! very funny ! i recognize you're right on this one !

    2) Sorry, Keith, but if you don't see why a forest should produce more materials and the plains more food, or why a mine is more 'sexy' than generic towns placed everywhere, i can't explain more ... :)

    3) I understand your point of view, and your diagram is cute, but sorry, for me Less is less, particularly if, because there will be perhaps no v1.4, we are destined to stay forever in the little vale before the great mountain pike ... As for Auro : i'm glad to learn that it is much more advanced than Empire, but it is not Auro i own ....

    For the debate, sorry, i'll pass . if other players share my point of view, i'll let them develop .

    Anyway, congratulations to have made such a fine game ! :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2014
  8. keithburgun

    keithburgun Administrator, Lead Designer Staff Member

    I think good, strong gameplay will do way, way more than any element of story/theming could, so I think getting the core gameplay strong is priority #1. Of course, a strong goal is part of that, but I don't really have a problem with a score-threshold goal, whereas I *do* think a lot of the other gameplay elements, as they stand, are problematic.

    I'm disappointed that you both refuse to even try version 1.3 and also refuse to defend your points of view, and on top of all that you characterize my request for discussion on the matter as child-like.

    Honestly, if you're just going to come in and SAY YOUR OPINIONS with zero interest in explaining them or defending them, while being insulting and dismissive, it's probably best if you don't bother.

    These boards exist FOR THE PURPOSE OF discussion and debate, to try to figure stuff out and make our games better. For every guy who says "I LIKE X" we have a guy saying "I LIKE NOT X". So that's why we have to understand reasoning.

    Glad you enjoy Empire.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2014
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  9. keithburgun

    keithburgun Administrator, Lead Designer Staff Member

    Here's the official blog post with the upcoming 1.3 patch notes. Crazy Monkey is implementing these now, and then we'll have about a week or so to beta test them. PM me if you're not already an Empire beta tester and I can get you in. As a reminder, being an Auro beta tester doesn't make you an Empire beta tester, you gotta sign up for both.

    http://empire-game.net/?p=212
     
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  10. Nachtfischer

    Nachtfischer Well-Known Member

    This is confusing: "Winning a battle no longer gives you *spell* cards, just action cards [...] You now get spell cards through battles with Monsters."
     
  11. keithburgun

    keithburgun Administrator, Lead Designer Staff Member

    Oops! Thanks, good find, fixed.
     

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