EA's Madden '13 Kickstarter Makes 8.5 Million in Five Hours

EA’s Madden ’13 Kickstarter Makes 8.5 Million in Five Hours

Edit: Please note that we’ve written a follow-up to this article, which you should check out here!

The headline is a joke, of course, and a bit of parody of what’s been going on recently with videogame Kickstarters. Successful and famous game developers have been running Kickstarter campaigns recently to make the next big sequel or new game that they have in mind. That’s fine, of course, and I definitely understand the excitement; I myself passed around the link for Wasteland 2′s Kickstarter. If these people screw these games up, at least it will be a sincere, earnest screwup by a game designer who really wanted to make something great, instead of a cynical boardroom checklist screwup by a publisher who really wanted to increase profits from last quarter. The headline of this article should suggest that I am indeed questioning where this is leading, and whether or not a company that just developed a game for Bethesda really was what Kickstarter was made for.

Now, some of our readers may remember that we attempted a Kickstarter ourselves a few months back, for Auro. Sadly, It didn’t make it, and we accept total responsibility for that. We started it off with a very unclear and somewhat “inside-baseball” video, as well as a character design that everyone seemed to hate. When we realized that a lot of these complaints were absolutely correct, we scrambled to respond to it, and created a whole new illustrative video and character design, but it was too late. Most of the people who were going to even take a look at our Kickstarter already had, and had simply been turned off. That’s completely understandable. We don’t blame anyone for not feeling super “donatey” for that Kickstarter. Edit: Some people seem to be not getting this, so before people read on, please read the following: this article is not about how we’re upset that our Kickstarter failed. People not wanting to give us money is 100%, completely fine!

Auro is a game that’s being made by 3 people, on our off time. It’s a game that, all told, will probably have ended up taking us a year to complete because we have to do it on our off time while doing other jobs. Again, that’s fine, and that’s probably what we’ll end up doing, because we really love this game and believe in it strongly.

Double-Fine Double-Standard

So anyway, a lot of new Kickstarters run by large-size, AAA teams are popping up and making millions of dollars. Wasteland 2 has made over two million so far and it still has 11 days to go as of this writing. And everyone on the internet is just leading the charge. Here are some comments from the many, many reddit posts supporting this kickstarter:

“I wish I had more money to give! THIS MUST HAPPEN!”

“You can always save on food since it’s not nearly as important as this project. I think I can handle not eating for a month, right?”

“SELL YOUR WALLET ON EBAY, GIVE MONEY TO KICKSTARTER”

Which is all great! I’m really happy to see people excited about this. Hell, if I had any money, I’d probably have donated myself.

The issue is that when we ran OUR Kickstarter, we were met, several times, with a very different attitude. Not a “your game looks like shit” or other such, “I’m not interested in funding your specific game” type post — that, we’d be fine with (and actually I’d be surprised if someone hadn’t said such a thing about Wasteland 2, even, among all those comments). The problem is this attitude of, “how dare you ask for money?”

Check out this lovely comment from one user on indiegames.com:

They want FIFTEEN THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS ? For THIS? To me it looks like a fraud.

If you REALLY WANT do something, do it yourself. Like I have done – without ANY money and in my spare time after work hours.

I can’t see a point in supporting lazy people with so much money.

Keep in mind, we were asking for $15,000. Given that the game would take us at least 5 or 6 months (if we were able to work full-time), and we are three people, this is still hardly enough to live on. Even with the Kickstarter money, we might have had to go into credit card debt or some such. Here’s another, from a Kotaku posting about the game:

Can anyone explain what exactly makes a project like that cost $15,000? Are they both going to be working 8 hours a day for 2-3 months, and it’s their salary?

I suppose it’s theoretically possible that this was a legitimate question, but I somehow doubt it. That doubt becomes a lot stronger when you read a reddit thread like this one below (or this one…)

The “are we funding a game, or your living expenses?” question is particularly curious, as though the two things are not the same. It’s not as though we need the money to buy a big ol’ bag of pixels, or something. Clearly, there is a some amount of resentment towards indies trying to get their grubby paws on people’s money.

Since this whole fiasco, I’ve gotten several supportive emails pointing out this strange double-standard. Edge Magazine even wrote an article about it. Essentially, I think the issue is that people don’t understand that making games is a lot of hard work, whether it’s for a huge Fallout 3-scope game or something more the size of The Binding of Isaac.

Game developers, big or small, need to be able to pay the rent and buy food in order to continue making games. I think everyone knows that, and I think that there is something implicit in Kickstarter that indicates that it’s really there for helping out the little guys. The big guys have connections and passive income; they have means to make things happen, and they do make things happen. Things like The Indie Fund and Kickstarter are, I believe, there to help the little guys without connections or any passive income from a library of hit games they already got published.

I also recognize that Brian Fargo started this “kick it forward” campaign, which he deserves credit for. Again, I hold absolutely no bad feelings for Fargo or inExile for starting a Kickstarter, if anything I applaud them for going around their publishers. I do think that there could be a tipping point, though. If too many “big, famous rock-star developers who have full-time jobs making games already and passive income from past hits” start doing this, there will (hopefully) be a bit of blow-back. Otherwise, I think the amount of indies who get funded will dramatically decrease as all that potential funding gets sucked up into making the next Doom, Wizardry or Ultima sequel.

In the meantime, we’re plugging away on Auro as much as we can every day. It’s going slower than we’d like, so we’re still considering other possible funding sources (including another Kickstarter, possibly), but it will get finished one way or another.

We have a follow-up to this article written here.

Posted on 04/05/2012 by keithburgun. This entry was posted in Auro, Culture, Kickstarter. Bookmark the permalink.

Hipster Scum

Could you get any more beardy and entitled?
- http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun
  
  I don’t have a beard, but can you tell me why it is that you think that I feel entitled?
http://www.miittin.com David

I think you’re not getting it. Double Fine Adventure and Wasteland 2 come from respected people. People with credits, that won’t ruin their reputation over a kickstarter project. You are 3 unknown guys that say you want to do a game as a hobby and get payed for it.

I’m not saying that you don’t deserve to get payed to develop a game, but don’t expect everyone to agree with you and/or trust you. Real business is full of stories like this: Great ideas getting rejected by investors (I know a few) simply because they come from people with very little credits and experience.

Tough up and live with it. It happens to all of us, and especially don’t take it out on the people that don’t trust you. Even if it hurts, their reaction is natural.
- http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun
  
  The article was not about “wah, why didnt people give us money”. The article was about us getting called “frauds” for asking. Is that really not clear, or did you not read it?
- Blake
  
  David,
  We didn’t want to get paid to make a game as a hobby…we wanted to get paid so we WOULDN’t have to make it as a hobby. So we could work 8 hours per day…so the game could get done in less than 6 months. Since we’re not getting paid, it is a “hobby” by mere necessity.
  
  When did we say or even implicate that we’re entitled to anything more than these other developers, or entitled at all? We aren’t disgruntled that our kickstarter bombed. In fact, we realize it was largely our fault.
  
  Your defamatory remark is irrelevant to the article, other than being yet another reason why the article needed to be written.
- http://pldevelopment.blogspot.com/ yarlesp
  
  kickstarter will fund anything, david. they funded venus patrol for chrissake. and I see stuff that would have been laughed at on the mod scene five years ago getting tens of thousands of dollars. whatever signals the community was sending to dinofarm had nothing to do with an honest appreciation of the game’s merits and the pedigree of its developers. kickstarter is a bunch of gross nerds with way too much money, not a shrewd venture capitalist firm playing hardball. get real.
  
  kickstarter is fascinating from an economics perspective. kickstarter actually does what stock markets claim to do (allocate capital to emerging/expanding firms, and not just rearrange ownership patterns), but it’s not even an investment in the sense that a positive return is possible. the absolute best you can get is exactly what you were promised, and you run the risk of being wiped out completely. and people go all in for it!
Rockso

Alright, I just want to say this this was wonderfully written and that, as a whole, the recent generation and the “gaming” industry as a whole has begun to disgust me for this exact reason. To David, the problem with what you just said is this: Those “respected developers” DO have credits and what not. But they also have one thing that Keith and his team don’t have: A steady income to do JUST what they made a kickstarter for.
I’m not saying that their kickstarter program makes them greedy or anything like that. What I AM saying is that people like you, those who insult and defame indy game developers because they “don’t have credentials” and scoff at them when they ask for a little money to fund a project that you LIKE (I’m assuming you do since you’re here), are the reason that big name developers keep pushing out the same tired crap. They keep given us Madden XXXX and “Big Name Game # 15: Now with more of the same thing as #14″ because people keep going nuts for it without giving innovation a real chance.
The problem is that people seem to view video game making (and art as a whole) as a “hobby” type thing. Something you do on the side of a real job. No body seems to realize that game makers, even the ones who are making a game because they fervently believe in its core ideas, are still looking to feed and clothe themselves. And really, if people don’t stop looking down on indie developers… well, eventually there won’t BE any and we’ll be stuck with Call of Duty 16
- http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun
  
  Thanks, Rockso!
Guillermo

I think the state of affairs described at this article is really disappointing. Anyone who has even read the previous posts by these people should know that they have strong ideas and are very passionate about them. That alone deserves a lot of credit.
I don’t necessarily agree with some of their fundamentals (for instance, I don’t believe on the whole “less is more” philosophy), but I think it’s great that they are thinking about these things and acting on their ideas. Far from being insulted, they should have been given a chance. I know if I had money I could spare, I would have definitively pledge some to their project (even in the initial iteration, which I had found highly promising).
Shame on the people attacking Dinofarm :-/
BTW, I do think big time developers, who don’t need to rely on kickstarter to fund themselves as full-time devs, are greedy by using the service.
Anyway, best of luck to the guys behind Auro, I hope to be able to play the game in a not-so-distant time :)
sheep

Let me highlight the differences:

1.

We are some random people that have made a game that you never heard of (mostly because it’s only for iphone that you don’t have) which we openly admit is not very good. We were thinking about taking a vacation from our day jobs to indulge in our hobby of making games, and we need your money for that. We have completely redefined what “computer game” means and unlike all the clueless people who were making games for the last 40 years we know exactly what we are doing and our game will be something you have never seen before. Unless you don’t have an iphone, of course, because we want to make a ton of money on the appstore later on. Edit: We didn’t get much money, so we have completely changed everything. We are still confident that we are right, not all those other game-making people.

2.

You know me as a professional game designer, I made some of your favorite games, such as: [list of games here]. Even if you didn’t play some of them, you totally should because they are great fun. I’m going to make another great game that you will enjoy just like these. You can help make that happen.
- http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun
  
  It’s weird how many people wrote this exact same comment, particularly because it doesn’t address the article.
  
  The article is NOT about “wah, why did people fund these other things and not our game!!!”
  
  The article IS about people shouting us down and calling us frauds for even asking for money.
- Blake
  
  Hey sheep. First off, you’re an unkind person. Second, wanna know what we do for a living?
  
  I work full time as an animator for another indy company. I spend 12 hours a day drawing. 8 for my job, 4 for Dinofarm. Keith is a contracted author. He’s being paid an advance to publish a real book on game design.
  
  We aren’t “HOBBYISTS,” we’re UP-AND-COMERS. There is a difference.
  And up and comers are what Kickstarter is supposed to be for. So yeah, it’s just as worthless for me to have to sling credentials at you as it is you those AAAs. Kickstarter can give those WITHOUT credentials a fighting chance.
  
  You are yet another justification for why this article was written. How DARE we slimy fraudulent hobbyists ask for the equivalent of 5 DOLLARS AN HOUR for 5 months! Oh shit madden has a kickstarter? Totally givin them a hundred bucks!
  
  So these companies have a reputation. It doesn’t mean you’re guaranteed the product you want. It doesn’t even guarantee the game wont die to feature creep. I still didn’t see a the need to be mean and insulting to people who want to work like slaves and sell you a professional-grade product for a dollar.
  
  Finally, Auro will be cross platform including PC, Linux, OSX and Android.
  - sheep
    
    First of all, please excuse me for being unkind, or even, as I read it now, offensive. I should have put it much more mildly and elaborated a little. And no, I wasn’t even trying to reply to a “wah, why did people fund these other things and not our game!!!”, especially since you keep repeating that this article is not about that — one would think that after repeating it so many times you would at least try to view it as a reply to the actual article.
    
    I was trying to demonstrate, by twisting and exaggerating the messages sent by you and by the other kickstarters, why so many people assumed that you are a fraud, or at least that there is a high risk in supporting you. And no, it has nothing to do with what your actual day jobs are and how much experience you have. It also has nothing to do with whether and what you and the others will actually deliver. It’s all about perceptions.
    
    Please forgive me for wording this comment as if it was an actual opinion about you — it is not, I actually respect you and care about what you are doing. Even though I sometimes disagree with your extremist view of certain game-related topics, I wouldn’t waste my time on reading this blog if I didn’t see a lot of good work you are doing.
    
    But I am in the minority. The people who come to the kickstarter, or anywhere else, really, are not going to be doing a background check on you, especially when the first impression doesn’t look good. And people become quite paranoid the moment you ask them for money. Of course, it’s not just the message on the kickstarter — it helps tremendously when you name has been heard in a couple of places, and if you are credited for a game that people loved to play. Being a celebrity practically gives you all the trust the people have — even though, as you say, there are no real guarantees and it’s all just in their minds.
    
    Again, I’m sincerely sorry for being mean, I have a very bad record with comments on this blog, mostly because it talks about things that I care about and I get very emotional right after reading it. I promise to try and cool down a little before posting any future comments.
    - http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun
      
      Heheh, it’s cool. We really appreciate your participation, and for what it’s worth, I didn’t really consider your comment mean to begin with.
Adam Schneider

Keith, you’re tilting at windmills, expecting actual reading and comprehension.

It is amusing how Fargo talks about how more money will make the game “deeper,” when what he really means is it will make it longer, but I guess that’s the same thing to most people. Never mind that my gaming past is littered with “deep” RPGs I will never play again, and I still pop in Bushido Blade from time to time after more than 14 years. That game’s “story” mode was a joke, but the multiplayer and slash modes are still fun.
- http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun
  
  Maybe, just maybe… games are about gameplay!
http://www.jacksonlango.com Jackson Lango

I can think of one solution to this problem: Make it extremely clear why you are asking for however much money your asking for. I think a lot of teenagers don’t really understand why making games cost a lot of money. I know I didn’t. Film is a little easier to grasp since you have to pay for renting equipment, costumes, and editing software. But most teens haven’t ever had to support themselves financially, and don’t understand that the main loss of most businesses and projects is employee salary.
Padi

“Those big, evil publishers didn’t think another Madden would make any money. They said: ‘Kids just don’t care about football anymore, it’s all about the Ben 10 and the Bakugans these days! Make the new Madden like that!’ But we refused. A cartoon diaper baby Madden just wouldn’t truly be Madden. With your help, we can raise the quazillion dollars we need to make the most Maddeny Madden yet! It won’t be like new Maddens, either, which totally sold out to the man- it’ll be exactly like the Madden you grew up with! That’s right, we’ve decided to listen to fan demand and make Madden ’96 2: This Time It’s Personal. If you liked Madden ’96 1 you’ll poop when you see how fantastically, wonderfully identical this new game will be to that old game you loved!”
- http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun
  
  haha, brilliant. I hope EA doesn’t find this post.
Underwhelmed

I think you guys are missing a huge fundamental difference between yourselves, and Fargo, or Schafer, namely they have both produced great games, modern classics even, where as you guys have produced a below average iOS roguelike that has spent the vast majority of its time since release broken in some form or another.

Maybe if people had any faith in your capabilities to actually produce something worthwhile, you might see more money. You all act like a bunch of spoiled manchildren, angry that you have somehow been singled out by a world that “just doesn’t understand you”. If you are really so devoid of any and all self-awareness, if you really can’t cope with criticism and set backs without resorting to name calling and finger pointing, maybe you are all in the wrong line of work. Self publishing is hard, and frankly there are a lot of people that have worked a lot harder than you, and have a lot more talent than you, that didn’t make it either, so either put your chin up and deal with it, or continue to update your little blog here about how the world owes you something and how it isn’t fair.
- http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun
  
  First off, you’re about the 45th person to deliver this argument which, while not completely terrible, doesn’t address the topic of the article. Again, the article was not about “why didnt people fund OUR kickstarter!!!” Theres a difference between “I dont want to fund this” and “you are a thief/fraud for even asking”.
  
  >where as you guys have produced a below average iOS roguelike that has spent the vast majority of its time since release broken in some form or another.
  
  Well, actually it’s generally well accepted as a very good roguelike, not an average roguelike. It generally got very high ratings, and is on the top lists of iOS games from Wired and Gamepro, etc.
  
  In terms of the software side, it’s true we’ve had issues. However, we have a completely new programmer now; 100 Rogues was programmed by a different company. If you want to judge Auro’s programming, go take a look at Ido’s last game, Cardinal Quest.
  
  http://www.kongregate.com/games/idoyehi/cardinal-quest
  
  I really think you need to re-read the article, but for the last time: it was not about “people not wanting to fund us”.
Michael

I can understand your frustration, but to mention that frustration buys you nothing but negative press. I was linked here specifically as an example of “bad ways to generate kickstarter PR.”

You could be asking “what have we done differently that nets us a different reaction?” but instead you’re telling people to not do what they’re doing/say what they’re saying, and that’s neither a convincing argument nor a solid way to improve your own understanding of the system at work.

Whinging about how it’s not fair has never evened the balance.
- http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun
  
  You’re right. Whining about how it’s not fair would really be pointless. Luckily, that wasn’t what the article was about. At all.
  
  Please read the comment above you for more of an explanation. Or hell, try reading the article! Reading the headline and the first paragraph sometimes doesn’t yield the correct meaning of an article.
  - Adam Schneider
    
    Tilting at windmills.
  - Michael
    
    hey man, it’s your PR, maybe you should consider that you’re the one missing the point instead of arguing with the public’s perception?
    
    You can’t change the public perception by telling them they’re wrong individually, no matter how hard you try in your blog comments. Instead of trying to win that battle, you really ought to look at how those other companies position themselves in their PR and marketing, and how that compares to your PR and marketing.
    
    And I’d argue that if your headline and first paragraph don’t yield the correct meaning of your article, you’ve written them wrong. Additionally, I read the entirety of the article, and it is clearly sending a message other than what you’ve obviously intended to send, and that’s one of sour grapes whinging.
    
    As a final point, I would suggest that your inadvertent correction of “whinging” to “whining” in your rebuttal acts as a fantastic metaphor for your lack of attention to the details present in the communication of others.
    - http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun
      
      I am fully prepared to take full responsibility if this article, in fact, is communicating the wrong message. Would you mind telling me where it says something that suggests your interpretation?
      
      By the way, I added an edit to the top of the article… that’s the best I can do for now.
      
      Actually I thought “whinging” was a typo, as I’ve never heard that word before. My bad!
    - Adam Schneider
      
      Yeah, we don’t say “whinging” in America, dude. It’s not inattention to not write “favourite,” either. British English is the uncanny valley of language.
abillionrogues

Holy crap you guys need a Kickstarter to hire a PR guy.
Michael

I am deeply sorry. But even with explanation this sounds like “wah, why are you giving theses guys money and not us?”

Makeing a big deal of what some ideots on reddit posted is about as silly as takeing youtube comments serious. And dropping bombs like “Thanks for reading — now go contribute $1,000 to Mass Effect 4! If they reach 10 million, they swear they will make the world “fifty times the size of fucking Jupiter”… just imagine how much fun that would be! :)” because DFA gets to be more like one of the old games instead of the short 30 Minute game they expected to be able to produce simply issent up to thje standart of class you games sugested you to have.
- Michael
  
  I mean seriously. I don´t get the bitternes… you are sad about Wastland 2 getting bigger… yeah… are you sad about the banner sage getting bigger to? Or is it ok because they are more indy and able to sign a composer, ad animation they had cut before?
  Don´t you understand that Wastland 2, Shadowrun returns and DFA are just asking for the Budget to even start working on a game instead of saing we need x amount of cash to do three perfect backflips and thats it?
  What about a game like star command that used the almost 200% they created on Kickstarter to develop the game for a longer time and change it gameplay (not so x-com anymore) completely? Is that more ok since they made these changes while putting the money to use? Some may even say it is not ok since they promised something different in their kickstarter… others say just wait till they actually start showing gameplay of the game that innitialy was promised for Dec 2011.
  Thats an interesting point anyway. NON of this has been don before. Your talking down to games the work has barley started on yet. Hell, maybe these bigger worlds to explore will actually make you very happy in a year or two from now… or maybe they fail miserably because why dos a game without a pubisher needs to automaticly become great just because the guys doing it did some cool stuff 20-30 years ago?!
  - Michael
    
    And do not forget about how other games (or projects in general) actually benefited from these evil rockstar developers getting attention to the site.
    
    http://www.kickstarter.com/blog/blockbuster-effects
    
    “To date, new Double Fine backers have pledged an additional $875,000 to 1,200 projects.”
    
    I can see all the other indys suffering because of a Larry remake no one needs being on KS. Yep.
    
    My head hurts from all the shaking i forced it to do after reading this article…
    - http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun
      
      Hey Michael. That link you sent is indeed interesting, and seems to suggest that what I was concerned about won’t actually happen! I’m hoping that that’s true.
Shillz

There is no double standard.You just suck at convincing people that your game is worth funding.

If you have to respond to every comment and explain why they ‘don’t get it’, then guess what? You also suck at writing articles.

Not all game ideas are created equal. Not everyone is equally charismatic and persuasive.
- http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun
  
  It is true that we did a bad job of explaining what Auro was. I tried to make it clear in the article that I was taking full responsibility for that, but apparently we weren’t.
  
  Thanks for reading.
John

So after developing multiple iOS games in the past you still don’t have enough money to fund another game? Maybe you should take a hint that your games aren’t appealing, and try mixing up the same old formula you seem to repeat.
- http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun
  
  We’ve only made one iOS game, and we are making Auro without any funding currently; have been for about six months. It’s just very hard and will take a long time!
  - John
    
    Didn’t you fellas make 100 Trials, as well as 100 Rogues?
    - http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun
      
      No sir! There’s another company, Fusion Reactions, that did that game.
      
      We created the assets and did the game design for 100 Rogues, but the programming, was all Fusion. 100 Trials was designed by them, too, so we really had no hand in it except that they re-used our art.
- Blake
  
  Hey John,
  100 Rogues went way over budget hiring a coder. Our publisher at the time, fusion reactions, handled all that. We have actually just received our first very small royalty in the two years the game has been released. As it happens, look around. 100 Rogues, besides some software issues, which was Fusion’s responsibility, is a pretty beloved and well-received and reviewed product. 100 Rogues has sold moderately well, and has made back a pretty colossal investment on the part of the publisher.
  
  Auro will be dramatically different from 100 Rogues, and Keith and I believe it will be significantly better.
  
  We have a new coder, and you can witness his coding ability via his great game, Cardinal Quest.
Kinsman

So people have been telling you that Double Fine are well-known people, while you are unknowns, etc.

And you’ve been saying that’s not the point, you want to know why people are calling you frauds, etc.

But it’s the same difference, really. What did you expect a lack of trust was going to look like?
- http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun
  
  Are you implying that people who are not all already well known should be accused of being frauds? I feel like Kickstarter, as a concept, doesn’t make much sense if it’s only for people who already have an established reputation, but maybe you’re right.
Bob Sagget

I don’t understand this concept of “bashing” the customer for not wanting to give you money. Why does this exist in the gaming industry? Hell, you people aren’t even part of the industry, yet this article and a few comments attack the public for being too cynical towards random people they’ve never heard of.

Calling you guys frauds may be a stretch, but the fact of the matter is that doublefine and the wastelander guys have reputations to maintain. They’re all well known developers who would be absolutely murdered by their fans and their peers of they failed to deliver a good product, much less completely bailed with their funding. They put in the time, the risk, the hours, the coffee mugs and brown noses from internships. These people did not magically materialize their reputation. You people seem to believe that you “should” be receiving crowd funding, simply because you fall under the “indie” umbrella. Well, this is certainly not the case. Those developers are independent and have something at stake. If you’re not willing to take a risk and self fund to gain some reputation the public has a right to be skeptical about everything you do.
- http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun
  
  We never meant to attack the public or bash anyone. Who do you think we were bashing, exactly?
  
  We also do not believe that we should be getting crowdsourced. We take full responsibility for Auro’s failed kickstarter. We did a really bad job with it!
  
  >If you’re not willing to take a risk and self fund to gain some reputation the public has a right to be skeptical about everything you do.
  
  We did this already, with 100 Rogues. We spent the last 3 years basically working on that game for free.
  - Adam Schneider
    
    I have to give you credit for your stamina, but you’re wasting your time. You’ve clearly been linked somewhere unsympathetic, and the hooting apes are descending. I’ve seen it before; once the internet noise machine decides you have done something wrong, however erroneously, nothing you say can change their tune. Better to just put the time and energy into Auto instead.
Bob Sagget

I don’t see how you’re not bashing the public by saying there’s a double standard. There is no double standard. People are wary of giving you money because you have no reputation. I give you guys credit for going out on a limb and making a game for 3 years since you actually produced something, but clearly it didn’t break through and gain you guys any sort of reputation. Those developers didn’t get where they were by simply making games. There are millions of people who’ve made games that are forgotten.

It sounds like you guys saw kickstarter as some kind of charity run, where money is just sent in good faith. In reality it’s the same as a regular investment, even if the hit to each investor is substantially less. People are going to be tight on their wallets unless you have a good reputation or you deliver something that opens up their imagination and their bank accounts.
/v/ Mason

You want 15 grand to make an iPhone game.

And not even to make it, you claim you need living expenses.

How do you currently live? Do you get checks from the government? free handouts at the soup kitchen?

You don’t need $15,000 to “live off of”

That’s only scratching the surface, I’m not even going to bother bringing up your credentials.

Oh wait, I can’t, because you have none.

tl;dr

You have to walk before you can run
- http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun
  
  Thanks for the comment, but really quickly would you mind answering this question?
  
  Where did you get the idea that Auro is an “iPhone game”?
  
  I ask because a ton of people keep thinking this, so I’m wondering if there’s somewhere that you read that. Anyway…
  
  >And not even to make it, you claim you need living expenses.
  
  This is kind of what the article is about. Kickstarter is about paying people to make things. Paying people to make things means… paying their living expenses. We don’t have to buy pixels or any raw materials. You are also paying Double-Fine or inExile’s living expenses, you know.
  - /v/ Mason
    
    I didn’t want to reply to that huge fallacy, but I will anyways.
    
    First off, it’s an iPhone game. That’s your target audience.
    
    Second, you feel like you are on the same level as respected game developers.
    
    “When you donate to X and Y you’re only paying for their living expenses! So that justifies my project!”
    
    Yea, no. You sound like you deserve to get paid before doing any work.
    
    I am only refuting the key points in your argument, and I don’t have anything against you.
    
    Please don’t respond as if I’m out to get you.
    - Blake
      
      “deserve to get paid before you do work?”
      
      And you talk about fallacies?
      
      What do you call an advance for a recording artist or author? It’s so they can work full time on their product!
      
      Do those people not deserve it? Do they deserve your contempt?
      
      By that same token, authors get advances for impressing their publishers. Recording artists get advances for making recordings by impressing their labels. We at Dinofarm obviously failed to impress our audience with our first Kickstarter attempt, and we make no attempt to hide that fact.
      
      The article, once and for all, points to the indignation and contempt the audience tends to hold for honest start-up teams trying to make full-time production a real possibility. It is a valid point that big names have big reputations, and I think it’s awesome that they can completely circumvent the bean counters and publishers and reclaim creative control.
      
      We are dedicated to Auro, and are making it when we’re not working on our respective jobs. The kickstarter was an attempt to drop everything and dedicate 5-6 months of full time development so it wouldn’t take us another year to produce it.
      
      The point was, our project, and many others like us, were asking for peanuts. If, at the end of the day, people just didn’t want to donate to us, that’s fine, and honestly I don’t blame them considering our poor video. It’s the nasty, contemptuous attitude some people have. The accusations of fraud. The accusations of laziness.
      
      Pardon us indies who want to practically give away years of work as we request for 5 dollars an hour to slave towards that end. That’s the contempt I’m talking about.
      
      In the face of that, we’re still optimistic. We’re still happy to produce when we can as much as we can, because Auro will be something really special. You’ll see. Maybe later than we’d like, but you’ll see.
    - http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun
      
      >First off, it’s an iPhone game. That’s your target audience.
      
      Can you explain this statement for me? Sincerely curious about what you mean.
      
      Auro is a very difficult game which, unlike 99% of video games coming out, you can, and often will lose. Most video games, you can only win. It isn’t as thought it has something in common with… like, Tiny Tower, or something. It’s elegant, but it’s not “casual” per se. It has more in common with a hardcore abstract boardgame than some facebook game.
      
      Further, it’s cross-platform. Eager to hear your response.
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jrodman

Honestly, you’re not really surprised with the reaction, you’re surprised at how rudely and inaccurately it’s being expressed.

But those things are pretty common in the trashy realms of the internets.

Maybe you’re right that the fundamental issue is that game buyers have a completely wonky mental map of what game money gets spent, but I suspect it’s just that rudeness must find a way.
- http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun
  
  I do think probably one of our biggest mistakes in writing this article is just that we took certain people’s opinions more seriously than we should have.
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Jason

It’s pretty simple. A team of limited output, with no strong reputation behind them, combined with an admittedly poorly done kickstarter equals large amounts of skepticism. Large amount of skepticism placed into the box of negativity that is public forums on the internet equals no small amount of hateful, angry comments.

You can get away with one or the other, having a poor presentation or being an unknown quantity, but you can’t be both, Being an unknown team, you needed to have something to show, something fleshed out to show exactly what type of game Auro is planned to be. People trust when Tim Schafer or Brian Fargo speak of their game in broad terms; it’s much harder to summon that trust for people you’ve never heard of. The public needs you, frankly, to prove yourself to them first, at least in a small way. Going back to your kickstarter, to some commenters, it likely seemed like your team was asking for 15k to make a game with static sprites sliding around a plain background.

You article comes off as whining and negative likely do to the misplaced digs you chose to throw in against the larger kickstarters. The snide comment about the Wasteland budget totally determining size and scope is completely meaningless to you article. It should be edited out. The same with wishing for a blow back against larger developers doing this. While you give a reason for this, given the nature of this article, it seems more like a subtle pointing of the finger, that you blame these larger projects for taking away from yours.

Best of luck to you and the team. I hope Auro turns out to be the game you envision it to be.
- http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun
  
  >The snide comment about the Wasteland budget totally determining size and scope is completely meaningless to you article. It should be edited out.
  
  Okay, I’ll do that. I think that it should be its own complete article anyway.
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http://www.dwellergame.com Björn Ritzl

Jesus, reading this article makes me really sad. It’s absolutely god damn awful what people write about your Kickstarter campaign. $15k is not much for a game of Auro’s complexity and it really makes me question the whole crowdfunding concept. We, as indie developers, clearly need to educate potential doners about game development and the tasks involved.
Antsan

What is so hard to understand about “game developers need food too”? How can anyone expect any human to do any continuous work with less then they need to live? Too many poorly abstracted strategy games?
hk

I think the comment about track-records & reputation hold the most ground here. The guys getting good funding made Monkey Island and so on. People want them to succeed because they have a list of awesome games to the moon and back.

Get some critical success then ask for help if you need it, the other way around just sound slike you feel entitled as a bedroom coder team to have success or respect before you have actually earned it.
http://damianvila.com Damian

First of all: I’m also making an indie game, but for reasons that would be clear, I refuse to take the Kickstarter way.

The problem with Kickstarter.

For people to give you money, they may be convinced that they will get something they need or want in return, right?
Real or not, you need some “guarantee” that this will be the things will work. It’s just a matter of trust
People with credentials have it easy: they already proved they can deliver.
People without credentials have it more difficult, and depend a lot on perception.
Perception of your work is a lot like personal appeal: some people can convice you immediatly of what they’re capable of (you immediatly like them), others have to work hard to convince you. Others, no matter how hard they try, will never make it. You can’t like everybody.

So, you, a complete unknown developer, need to pitch your idea to people, and make them immediatly trust you, and make them believe that you can give them what they want. That’s pretty hard to achive, if you lack the skills or natural appeal.

I’ve heard about venuzpatrol somewhere. They are funny. You read their tweets and you like them. It’s that easy.

So, let’s say you tried, and you screw it, because you were not able to explain clearly your ideas. So no matter how good hose ideas are, you failed to impress your public.

You still have a chance: a sponsor.

You know, regular people don’t know how hard it is to make a good game. But other developers do. So maybe, you can pitch your idea to other well-known developers out there. Maybe one of them likes it, and understand what you’re trying to achieve. In that case, ask for them to sponsor you, maybe by just tweeting about your project, giving some support, or letting you cite what he/she thinks about your project in your kickstarter pitch.

Then people will know that your idea has some merit, and probably trust you.

You have only one opportunity to impress on Kickstarter, and that’s the problem with it, it’s a hit-or-miss opportunity, and you can never be too sure ir you’re on the right track, unless you have a sponsor or some previous credentials that will make you a trustworthy projets to the eyes of prospect backers.

In our case, we prefer to first deliver something. If people like it, then we’ll have a better opportunity to do something better and bigger, and ask for some money to fund it.
- http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun
  
  Good post. The problem with a “sponsor”, as far as I would understand it, is that they would probably want some level of control over the product, no? That’s one thing we’re not prepared to do.
  
  But yeah, I know what you mean about Kickstarter. Also, if your game happens to be really weird, I feel like it could be more difficult to sell on something like Kickstarter, versus a situation where they’re actually able to play the thing (like, say, Desura alpha funding).
  - http://damianvila.com Damian
    
    When I say “sponsor” I don’t mean something like an Executive Producer. I mean the support of a well known developer that can back the idea. But not in a monetary way.
    
    For example, let’s say you get in touch with Tim Schafer. You show him the idea, and he likes it. He tweets “The guys from Dinofarm Games are making a great game, you can back it at Kickstartet clicking here: [link]” That would help a lot. Or maybe you can ask him for his opinion, and let you cite him. So you can cite him like “Auro is one of the most exciting game projects out there. I’m eager to play this game” -Tim Schafer. That would add a lot to the perception of the potential of the game.
    
    All in all, this is just a matter if trust. If people see someone they trust, trusting you, they will start to trust you. The more well known developers talk about your game, the more blogs talk about your game, the better for you. Convince the right people, and the rest will be more easy.
    
    I’ve seen well-known developers recommend projects from fellow developers. And that gave a boost to their Kickstarter campaings.
    A little hype goes a great length, if you know what I mean.
    
    You only get modest results from Kickstarter without the hype, that’s the way it works, sadly. You need to get to the front page to get interesting results. Same with the App Store.
    To get things done, sometimes PR is as important as a good art department or a fine code.
    There are too many good projects out there, and you are fighting for attention.
    
    Believe it or not, this blog post is good for you. Maybe you can turn your failed fundraising into a successful one. ;)
    (I hope so)
    - Adam Schneider
      
      These are far and away the best comments in this whole thread.
    - http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun
      
      Thanks Damian! We’ll definitely take your advice if/when we do another Kickstarter. Thanks for the positivity and great ideas.
http://rkrigney.com Ryan Rigney

For my own (failed) Kickstarter campaign for my upcoming game, FAST FAST LASER LASER, I ran into a lot of different responses. A lot of people on Reddit responded with anger that we were using Reddit to promote the game. I have no doubt that if we’d had some free promo codes to give them, that would’ve appeased them.

Here’s the magic formula for Kickstarter success:

Take goodwill (earned by either a really good product idea or by past success) and convert that into free money. If you don’t have enough goodwill (like my new company, Utah Raptor Games), you won’t get enough money.

Sure, the quality of your video is a factor, as is everything else, but goodwill is the really important part.
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Donnie Jamieson

You can’t blame people for not being particularly interested in your game, there are hundreds of free roguelikes, and this sort of lite roguelike is becoming more common than quirky plataformers these days.
- http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun
  
  I’ve responded to this kind of comment many many times now, but once more:
  
  The article wasn’t about people being disinterested in the game. It was about people being vicious towards us for even asking.
  
  Also, Auro isn’t a roguelike, it’s a *dramatically* new kind of game and doesn’t fit into any existing genre. If people weren’t interested in it, that’s fine, but to imply that it’s typical at all is just simply incorrect.
Katosepe

I just heard about your game a little while ago and decided to check it out. I’m impressed by what you guys are doing and am very sorry to hear your kickstarter didn’t work out. I agree with you that people don’t seem to understand what Kickstarter is for and what that money is going towards. I’m currently running a kickstarter myself for my first novel (Angarin: The Escape, if you don’t mind the small bit of self-promotion) and have received the same comments as well. People ask why I need money to write a book and why they should pay for my paper. It’s ridiculous, especially since it isn’t even as if they are just donating the money. They get a game out of it. Anyway, just wanted to say I wholeheartedly agree with you guys and if you decide to try again at a Kickstarter campaign, I’d be happy to support you however I can. Good luck and I’m looking forward to Auro when it comes out.
- Katosepe
  
  Lol sorry I switched back to talking about you but it was a bit unclear. In my case, the reward would be a book but in yours it would be a game.
- http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun
  
  Thanks so much!
DisconnectD

I’m thinking like a lot of other kickstarters, you can mostly chalk up your failure to bad timing. If it would have launched literally a few months later than it did, I think it would have worked because crowd-sourcing exploded into the public’s perception. Look at FTL. I have to disagree about the video being of bigger importance than the initial concepts and ideas themselves though. With FTL, not a lot could be conveyed watching a low res video of gameplay, so I just had the prospects of a ”sci-fi roguelike” to latch onto then I got to play it on Onlive & was sold.

Maybe you guys should consider building a playable demo before trying kickstarter again that way people can get a feel for this radical new genre you are always talking about that has me and others so excited?
DisconnectD

Also my above comments refer to the negative backlash you received as well because as we all know this is the internet. I believe you would have avoided most of said backlash had, like you already said; your presentation been more fleshed out AND your timing had been just a little better but how could you have known Tim Schafer and Ron Gilbert were going to start an adventure gaming renaissance?

It’s just the luck of the draw & I definitely wouldn’t take what the naysayers have to say seriously since the public’s perception is obviously screwy anyway.
- http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun
  
  Thanks for the comments. We’re probably going to try again in a couple of weeks.
  - Adam D. Schneider
    
    *warms up wallet*
DisconnectD

Good luck with it! I’ll be supporting you for sure. Mind if I spread the word to my friends on twitter?
- http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun
  
  Not at all, but you might want to hold off for a week or so as we’re not sure when exactly we’ll be launching. We want to make sure there’s enough cool gameplay stuff to show off.
Ksempac

I’m late to the party, and not sure you will read this comment, but I want to post it anyway because I have a different take than others on that subject.

I saw Auro’s Kickstarter while knowing 100 rogues was :
- 1: Well rewiewed
- 2: In a genre I like
- 3: Only available on iOS. I have an Android phone so no chance I could try it myself

I also knew about Kickstarter, backed projects before, and know full well how expensive making a video game is (so 15K$ seemed a perfectly normal funding level).

So I had a relatively-positive opinion of you before opening the Kickstarter’s page.

However, here were my thoughts after watching your video and your page :
Good :
- Tactical game : love thoses, combat system seems great.
Bad :
- Design : you said it yourself, most people were put off by the prince’s design. I was one of them. Unfortunately, you were showing it a lot, and saying “look it’s so great”.
Maybe if you didn’t insist so much on that design, I would have overlooked it. But you seemed so much proud of it, that it was worrying for the rest of the artwork. Clearly your tastes were different than mine, so the game’s artwork would probably not please me.
- Rewards : Basically 10$ for the game (which is a lot for a mobile phone game), or 20$ for the game + 100 rogues…which I can’t play on my Android.
Others mobile games kickstarter ask for 10$ for their game, but at least, they offer some stuff to backers : DLC, special character, etc…

So my conclusion was simple :
* either I can pay 10$ for a game
- that may have artwork I don’t like
- and I don’t know if I like this team’s previous games (because I couldn’t try them).
* or I can’t wait for the game to come out, and pay 3$ for it if the end result seems good

I didn’t back you.

Months later, Double Fine. What did I think when I saw their kickstarter ?
- Hey funny video
- Adventure game ? Well I’m not a big fan, but if they are good I usually enjoy them
- Tim Schafer ? I played his previous games (including non-adventure games), and like what he does.
- 15$ for the game ? Well it’s probably be about that when it comes on Steam.
- I don’t like to pre-order games without reviews before, much less without concept.

So clearly, if you stop at that, I wouldn’t back Double Fine. But then…

- Game Soundtrack ? Oh I usually love thoses.
- Documentary that will show you the work of a game studio. Exclusive to Kickstarter, a unique opportunity to have a trueful view of what happens in a medium studio (instead of advertising disguised as documentary) ? THAT’S SOMETHING I WILL NEVER GET ELSEWHERE ! Count me in !

I backed Double Fine. Not for the game (which may or may not be good), but for the documentary. Heck Tim even said “maybe it will be a spectacular failure, but you will all see it fails and shame us”. That was a great line.

So here is an element you missed in your Kickstarter thinking : your rewards weren’t good enough. In many succesful kickstarter (video games or not), you will find one or more of the following :
- A reduced price
- A backer-exclusive reward (line in credits isnt enough)
- The feeling that if you’re a backer, you’re special.
In your case you “offered” a price higher than the final price, with no incentive to balance this (see Star Command or Run zombies for an exemple of “10$ but we give you good things”). Double Fine and Wasteland also thought about giving exclusive stuff.

Psychology is very important in Kickstarter. Rewards are very very important.
- http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun
  
  I read all comments!
  
  Regarding the prince, you know we responded to the claims about the prince’s design and totally, completely re-designed him from the ground up and made a completely new video, while the kickstarter was up? Go check it out now, we made a completely new video (which had its own problems but a new Prince Auro): http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dinofarmgames/auro-the-golden-prince
  
  >Basically 10$ for the game (which is a lot for a mobile phone game),
  
  You know it’s a donation, ya? If those rewards were 1 to 1 cost/benefit what would be the point?
  
  >- 15$ for the game ? Well it’s probably be about that when it comes on Steam.
  
  Again, you’re thinking of it wrong. It’s a donation. You know how NPR asks for donations and says things like “If you donate 100 dollars you’ll get this 4 disc compilation of whatever”. That does not mean that that 4 disc thing normally cost 100 dollars, otherwise that would defeat the purpose of asking for a donation.
  
  >a reduced price
  
  Our game will be like, less than 5 bucks anyway so I don’t think that’s possible.
  
  >- A backer-exclusive reward
  
  We offered those for some of the larger donators. I’m not sure how we can give potentially a thousand 10 dollar backers something really special.
  
  Thanks for your comment.
Ksempac

Yeah I know all that :

Redesign : too little, too late. Like you said before, once someone is put off a Kickstarter, he won’t come back to check it out. I did came back, and saw the redesign but it was like 3 days before the end of the KS, and it was clear it was too late to save it.

Donation : Yeah, it’s a donation, but most of the time, for board games/video games/design gizmo, that donation amounts to a pre-order and theses “donation/pre-orders” fund the game.

For mobile games, I agree, the problem is the final price is too low to really make a pre-order system work. But that’s why I said, you must balance the high price with something else. I mentioned Star Command / ZOMBIES, RUN! Both offered free DLC/exclusive.
If you say “Special character/avatar/weapon for backers only”, people will often loose all common sense and think “Oh can’t miss, must back the project !”. Again that’s common psychology/manipulation techniques. People hate losing, if you say “that offer won’t last” they feel compelled to buy the product.
The Dork Tower poke fun of the backer’s mentality, but everyone that backed some projets know it’s true : http://www.dorktower.com/2012/04/11/cookie-dough-dork-tower-11-04-12/

There is also the problem that if your fan base/target customers all “pre-order” through Kickstarter, nobody will buy the game upon release. I remember one Gamasutra article where a succesful Kickstarter explained they didn’t want to fall in this trap, so they offered something else instead as rewards (cant’t remember the game’s name unfortunately). It can still work as long as your rewards are worthwhile for gamers.

You have to get in the mind of people that may back you. WHAT WOULD MAKE THEM BACK ME UP ? Reading your comments it feels like you’re really trying to understand what went wrong, but you’re seeing this from your point of view, you’re not trying to see it from the backers’ point of view. Did you check out succesful and unsuccesful Kickstarters before launching your own ? did you read Gamasutra’s feedbacks by others devs on their Kickstarters ?

Another related point that I didn’t mention before is that I think you could have communicated better. What you lack in reputation, you can sometimes balance it out by communicating more. The more updates you make, the more comments you answer, the more you show everyone that you care, that you’re deeply involved and motivated. You made 7 updates to your Kickstarter. Some unknown people sometimes make more than 30 updates to their Kickstarter.
I’m not saying you’re not 110% commited to Auro. I’m saying it’s a matter of perception. Nobody knows you…it’s time to change that. Here is an example of someone who kept communicating to its backers and potential backers : http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1291246114/gunship-first-strike

You, on the other hand, didn’t update for 8 days because you were busy redesigning. That was a good thing to do, but keeping your users in the dark during this time wasn’t good. Because for 8 days, some people didn’t know you were changing the prince’s artwork/may think you’re not doing anything/aren’t commited enough.
Again, I’m not saying that’s true, I’m saying it’s a matter of perception. Show you’re here, post artwork, share a thought/design idea, start a survey on the graphics, whatever that will help potential backers to relate to your project.
- http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun
  
  All good advice. Thanks very much.
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Jackson

I just wanted to say that I completely agree with you guys and think it’s funny how many people don’t seem to realize that bigger game companies use money to pay people to work on the game. I’m not a pro, but I’d assume that’s the vast majority of what they spend money on. Which means they pay people’s living expenses. And since they need to pay legal wages, those people will be receiving a lot more than double what you guys will receive hourly. It seems like a fairly simple concept.

I believe I understood what you were trying to say in the article. Keep it up, guys!
- http://www.dinofarmgames.com keithburgun
  
  Thanks, Jackson!
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